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Keith Kipferl
Location: Elmira, NY Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 41
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 Posted: Thu 21 Aug, 2003 1:40 pm Post subject: Any info on these swords? |
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I found this picture in the album section. It looks like the pommel is shaped as a continuation of the grip. Does anyone know what type sword they are, time frame, etc.?
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=133
I'm also testing to see when and how the edit and delete functions act.
I think it's interesting that the pommels conform to the carved shape of the grip.
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Philip Lautin Jackson
Location: Norway Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sat 23 Aug, 2003 10:50 am Post subject: |
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yes.. it does seem, somewhat unusual.. I do not unfortunately have anything to say as for the conclusion.. except that they look almost like katzbalders without the eight-shaped grips.. so I'd guess they are from middle-europe/Germany.. albeit I wouldn't know..
-Philip
Tiocfaidh ar la
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 23 Aug, 2003 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Without any further information I'd have to guess, and say that those are various examples of european hunting hangers.
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Keith Kipferl
Location: Elmira, NY Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2003 8:07 am Post subject: |
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I also found them in the "Armuria of the Doge's Palace, Venice" album which may or may not mean they're Italian. I've never seen a sword intended for combat with pommels like those so the hunting hanger guess may be correct. Whatever they are someone took some time on those pommels. Nice work.
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 27 Aug, 2003 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Any info on these swords? |
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| Keith Kipferl wrote: | I found this picture in the album section. It looks like the pommel is shaped as a continuation of the grip. Does anyone know what type sword they are, time frame, etc.?
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=133
I'm also testing to see when and how the edit and delete functions act.
I think it's interesting that the pommels conform to the carved shape of the grip. |
These are a kind of swords very popular in northern Italy by the end of the 15th C. You may perhaps call them proto-katzbalgers. You kan see them in period art worn by lightly armed military men and civilians. They seem to have been popular in the high social spheres as well as some examples are decorated peices with mythological scenes in relief on the small cap-shaped pommels. In art it is common that the scabbard carry a pair of by-knives, something that was later exceled on in the very intricate scabbards of katzbalgers, that can have half a dozen by-knives of different size and shape.
These "proto-balgers" are also found in central and south german contexts. They usually have shortish (65-75 cm) or at lest light blades (at a guess IŽd say that a typical weight for these wepons is around 800 grams). The blades usualy have a lenticular section (more seldom hexagonal - one very fine example in the Wallace Collection has a pointy hollowground blade) and a fuller or two. A ricasso is quite common and it is frequently shapd with groves or fullers as well. You may expect to find etchings in the ricasso area on some peices.
I would not say they are hunting weapons primarily. In art they are shown as military weapons or weapons worn to show staus and fashion awareness. Some noted exceptions though: In the imperial armoury in Wienna there is a hunting sword of Maximilian the first that has some characteristics close to these swords. It becomes evident when one sees the sister to this sword in the national museum of Kopenhagen, given as a gift to the danish king from Maximilian: the danish sword has a hilt that is at least a version of the italian proto-balgers. A three-lobed cap and a gently s-curving guard (in this case shaped as four twisted bars ending in dragon heads) The blades of these two swords are mind boggling: Hollow ground into honeycomb shaped "fullers" carrying a deep blued finish with etchings highlighted in gold. Two by-knives in the scabbards on both swords. They are labeled as hunting swords in the museums.
This is yet one of these rather un-known types that grow on you the more one gets to study them. I used to think they were among the least attractive of swords, but now I find them interesting and impressive.
You may also look at the late versions of the Swiss degen-sword to compare construction and function: -An exposed wooden grip finished with a cap, and a simple guard that has the wood of the grip insterted in its base. There are a few interesting transitional peices in the swiss National Museum showing these strange looking weapons that are right between "proto-balgers" and swiss degens in shape and intended function: a light slashing/stabbing wepon for close quater fighting between lightly armoured combatants.
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Keith Kipferl
Location: Elmira, NY Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Wed 27 Aug, 2003 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Peter,
I was confused when I first saw them because those pommels looked like they belonged on a knife. These swords are obviously too large to be called knives, by me at least. I assumed they were for some type of civilian use. I figured a military person would want the more secure grip a larger pommel provides. What I gathered from your post was that they could have been used by the military but probably in the higher ranks as a personal "officer's sword". In the same sense they would be used by important persons as a show of status.
I like seeing wood, metal and stone used in art or objects in a way that makes them appear to be an integral part of a shape but with different color and texture. In this case, the shape of the wood grip was continued through the pommels in a different color and texture. Very interesting and, in this case, also functional. Except that there's no pommel bulge to keep the grip from slipping out of your hand.
Thanks again,
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This is a standard topic