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Sean Smith
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 Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Can you post a picture or link of what you bought? Part of why I personally didn't suggest one is that I know of none being made by companies that I would recommend people to. This way, if someone else asks, and still would like one (for whatever reason), I can point him towards it.
I didn't mean to come across as rude, and tried to ask a couple of times WHY you wanted it. Just wanted to help steer you towards the right thing, if you didn't know better. Obviously you do, and have a specific reason why you wanted a leather one. You may have gotten a bit better reaction if you posted the why at the beginning, instead of telling everyone they were wrong about their assumptions.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Chase,
People disagreeing with you does not always equal rudeness or rough treatment. If everyone agreed there would never be debate. Debate and discussion almost always involves multiple points of view (hence the debate). While some people could have been more tactful, no readers (you included) reported any posts here as being against our rules and no moderators felt the need to take any action.
As we are a historical site, people will always want to debate historical accuracy. If you feel your thread is being derailed, contact a moderator and ask us for help getting it back on track.
Lastly, we've had a recent rash of people getting upset when challenged and deciding to stop posting. It's unfortunate. If you are unwilling to have your sources and/or ideas challenged, then another website may be best for you. If you want to stay and learn and debate with some very knowledgable folks, then expect to be challenged and enjoy the ride.  We'd love to have everyone stay and participate. If you don't feel comfortable with that, then we wish you all the best.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Chase S-R
Location: New Mexico Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Hello again,
Yes I was immature and pig-headed. I am known to take offense easily and if i say something and it gets disputed I tend to back it up as I do not want to look a fool. I will continue to post and you can continue to dispute me. I cannot figure out how to post pictures only links, any ideas? Actually my grammar and spelling aren't this atrocious normally but I can only type 13wpm so I try to cut corners all the time. Looking back I do look pretty stupid I didn't and don't believe leather gambesons were common and I did fail to mention this, I defended them strongly as I felt i was defending myself in the process. The thing that bugged me was when I felt the Bayeux Tapestry was insulted, I have looked at that picture again and it still looks like leather to me  ? So sorry to everyone.
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Karl Knisley
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Hello
I think I`d like a, leather gambison-padded jack-or what ever.Not because its historical,but because, I think it would be cool  I`am glad Chase, asked the question.Somebody has to ask the questions. There are some,very,knowledgeable people on this site. They`ve put in alot of research,and they own impressive libraries,on arms and armor. It`s too bad,
that sometimes, they use this knowledge,as a stick ,to bludgeon the less informed. Me...I don`t know jack
What I know,is from the history channel,a few osprey books,a few odd armor books,and this site. But I know that history,
does alot of, extrapolation,and supposition. So I`am going to ,suppose and extrapolate
What I fairly sure of ,is that maile, was still kindof rare, in those days. So,if I couldnt have maile,and I didn`t want to raid in my street cloths , I`d want the next best thing,leather. As it`s been noted here,leather, as an under maile protection,
is unlikely,simply because ,it would be hot,and heavy. But posible...yes. People today aren`t any more intelligent,than they
were then.They`d have went for, what was best, and most comfortably,just like we would. I have a light stainless steel
maile shirt from,Azon-mesh,that i think would be great over a leather gambeson.For just in case I get teliported to a fantasy dimention
Reenactors,SCA combat,or just fantasising.It`s all for fun,it`s play,it`s "what ever floats your boat". Don`t take it so serious
that you hurt somebody`s feelings or take offence.
But that`s just my opinion. Feel free to bludgeon me with it
Last edited by Karl Knisley on Thu 21 Feb, 2008 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Chase S-R wrote: | Hello again,
Yes I was immature and pig-headed. I am known to take offense easily and if i say something and it gets disputed I tend to back it up as I do not want to look a fool. I will continue to post and you can continue to dispute me. I cannot figure out how to post pictures only links, any ideas? Actually my grammar and spelling aren't this atrocious normally but I can only type 13wpm so I try to cut corners all the time. Looking back I do look pretty stupid I didn't and don't believe leather gambesons were common and I did fail to mention this, I defended them strongly as I felt i was defending myself in the process. The thing that bugged me was when I felt the Bayeux Tapestry was insulted, I have looked at that picture again and it still looks like leather to me ? So sorry to everyone. |
Anyway, I hope you stick around and don't get discouraged if people ask questions or disagree with something you wrote: 99% of the time it's done respectfully and with good intentions. Occasionally, people may be too blunt and impatient but even then are mostly trying to help.  Anything truly rude or discourteous will attract correction from the moderator, so you don't have to defend yourself as the moderator's job is to do it for you. ( In case of doubt just P.M. a moderation for his advice if you think a comment crossed over into a lack of respect and they will look into it ).
Being able to learn from errors is a lot more productive that trying to win an argument at all cost: Even if you win in such a case you still lose because you then don't actually learn anything. ( Oh, when I say YOU, I don't mean you personally: I just talking about general principles that apply to every one.  ).
Also, written communication doesn't give the body language and tone of voice clues that help people understand the intended tone of an exchange: Just remember that if you read stuff between the lines, insults or slights, you may be reading stuff that isn't there or intended.
It is good to re-read one's post at least a couple of times to be sure that what one is saying is actually what one intends and a little spell checking doesn't hurt.
One suggestion is to keep your sentences short and to the point and separate the main ideas into paragraphs.
Oh, if you spot errors after you posted you can always go back to one of your posts and " click " on the (E) edit key and fix it:
I often go back to my freshly poster comments and edit out mistakes when I see them.
I hope I'm being helpful and please feel welcome to this site.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Thu 21 Feb, 2008 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Steven H
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Karl Knisley wrote: | | I`d want the next best thing,leather. |
The problem is that it isn't the next best thing. Leather isn't good armour.
Historically leather isn't used much for armour for a good reason. It isn't cut proof. It isn't impact proof. Felted wool is better at both. Quilted or layered cloth of a variety of different constructions is better at both. Mail is nearly perfect at cut proof. Plate is nearly perfect at both. This is why we see the armour that we do when we look at the history.
I know of no recorded instance in which leather was used as a stand alone armour prior to the 16th century. The only example I know of is the buff coat, and I don't know much about it but a search here should bring up a bunch of info on it (including the fact that without the large scale ranching of the 17th century it would've been stupidly expensive).
-Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It isn't cut proof. |
And thats why its never used by metal smiths for aprons....er.....I mean....uhhh....never used for gloves....er....uhhh....
Steve leather is used for both of these in the metal working trades exactly because it is cut resistant. If you want to make the case that it wasn't used for armour because theres no historical listings, or survivals or some other context feel free but moder day usage( and for that matter in the context of gloves and aprons in the metal workign trades historically)stands in direct opposition to the claim that isn't cut resistant. I expirience the benfits of this property on an almost daily basis using a leather apron and gloves.
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Sean Smith
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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On a related note, Chase, if you need to post links or images, they both use the buttons at the top of the reply section. All of my examples have {} instead of [ ] so you can read them. Links look like {url}www.blahblahblah.com{/url} (they have to have www. and an end .com/.org/etc) and images look like {img}blahblahblah.jpg{/img} (they have to end in a photo suffix .jpg/.gif/etc). If you need a place to host photos, I would look at setting up a Flickr account. Be aware, when using a link to a photo on there, you have to delete the last few letters, to make it end in the correct suffix.
Hope this helps. If you scroll over the buttons in the reply section, they also have little hints built in.
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Allan,
IME some leather is cut resistant, some is abrasion resistant, and some leather is stinking tough, like dried rawhhide, or cuir bollied leather.
Leather that is fit for wearing (again, in my experience) is more on the abrasion cut resistant side, but a forceful cut will slice right through it. This is a far cry from incidental contact that would be common in a smithy, right? Or is a blacksmith's apron stouter than I am imagining? Also, what kind of leather are you using? I've got leather in my welding gloves, but I thought that was because it's heat resistant.
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Karl Knisley
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hello
How about boiled leather?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Gavin Kisebach wrote: | Hi Allan,
IME some leather is cut resistant, some is abrasion resistant, and some leather is stinking tough, like dried rawhhide, or cuir bollied leather.
Leather that is fit for wearing (again, in my experience) is more on the abrasion cut resistant side, but a forceful cut will slice right through it. This is a far cry from incidental contact that would be common in a smithy, right? Or is a blacksmith's apron stouter than I am imagining? Also, what kind of leather are you using? I've got leather in my welding gloves, but I thought that was because it's heat resistant. |
I always make the point that if one uses a razor sharp blade it's almost as if the leather wasn't there but use a slightly duller edge and leather will be very hard to cut: Try cutting leather with a fresh exacto blade and compare what happens if you use a very used and dull exacto blade. With the dull blade one has to use very heavy pressure to cut.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Max Maydanik
Location: Sunnyvale, CA Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure how historical trustworthy purpleheart armory description of their buckler is and who did the tests shooting their buckler with .38s but here it is:
Here is yet another exclusive product offering by Purpleheart Armoury. Not since the Renaissance has such a high quality production leather bucker been offered. Featuring thick wax hardened (cuir bouilli) leather that is strong enough to stop a .38 caliber bullet. A raised umbo and thick handle allows your hand to have a strong secure grip. Tight stitching is done around the diameter for unequalled strength. Weighing only 1 lb. 12 oz. it can be used quickly to deflect blows and not tire out your arm. This buckler is historical from the 13th century to the 17th century.
However, here is except from Defensive Equipment of the Egyptian Army by Troy Fox:
"At Oxford University a leather covered wooden frame shield and a bronze shield were constructed similar to those used in ancient times and attempts were made to pierce them with both a sword and lance. While the bronze shield was split by the sword and pierced by the spear, the leather shield with its higher elasticity was not penetrated."
- What do you prefer: a reconstruction of historical fencing or a real swordfight?
- Historical reconstruction of course. In the real swordfight, they just look at each other, mumble something and then ..a deathblow.
And in a historical reconstruction you have to think, plan your strategy and count points.
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Thu 21 Feb, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Max I saw that claim too, but had forgotten about it. In any event a bullet doesn't cut, it smashes; kind of like a very small mace swung very quickly. This is why a ballistic vest may or may not stop a knife attack; the forces involved are different.
Jean what you are describing is exactly what I have seen. I have cut everything from very thin soft suede to saddle skirting with a good linolium knife.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Gavin, our aprons are 6-7 ounce leather, very grainy like a split but very suple, no ridgidity as it interfere with movement. Gloves are much thinner 1-2 ounce leather but that same grainy structure almost like a split. Expsoure to the cutting edges the metal vary between simple handeling to doing some things that you simply wouldn't do without the leather on because you know it won't cut ie. bracing edges against the thigh or chest to gain leverage while cutting ( as long as nothing moves you would be fine without the leather but if something shifts under pressure which can and does happen your now drawing a very profficient cutting edge accrosed the surface with force) or when moving 3'x4' sheets of steel around, if done bare handed ( which just is not a good idea) any little move by the sheet in the hands will tend to yield small cuts and when placing the sheet back down again it must be done by a relatively deep bend at the waist vs. with leather gloves simply standing upright and letting the metal literally slide through the hand down to the floor. When drilling holes once in a long while a drill bit will bite and snatch up the piece of steel spinning it at the same rotation as the drill. You will usually take one hit while getting out of the way and turning it off. While you'll feel the impact for sure, the little spinning razor blade that is your piece has yet to yield a cut on our gloves.
I've had the same apron for almost 10 years. What tends to do the gloves in around the shoppe is abrasion, wire wheels. Cleaing of rust and polishing and such, constantly bumping off the wire wheel ( usually the index finger) eventually works its way through the leather of the gloves.
Again i'm making no comment on the historical written record regarding the use of leather or surviving examples ect. just its use because of a certain property it has with the right tan to it in many of the metal trades now and for at least a while back in time.
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Chase S-R
Location: New Mexico Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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I also do metal working and my apron is donkey hide. When I went to centaur forge to buy my apron the smith said that leather gloves were no longer being used for hot metal as by the time they get hot you can't take them off, the gloves he sold me were flame retardant wool used to line some coffee can forges but of a less thick weave. I still use leather gloves for everthing else and they tend to wear out from sanding.
My riding gloves (horses) wear out about every other week!
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Chris Arrington
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| Posted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: |
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There was recently a quite long discussion over on ArmourArchive.org on the same subject, and I think the conclusion was much the same.
On a more practical note, other than "looking cool", why would you want a leather gambeson? From my experience of fighting in the SCA, strenous activity while wearing a gambeson and armour (mine was munitions grade 3/4 suite of plate in 16 gauge) it is EXTREMELY hot.
Leather doesn't breath and will not wick away sweat, which means that it would be horrendously hot, and your just begging for a case of heat exhaustion. At least where I live.
Linen, Cotton, or Wool, would all make a better gambeson.
Just my opinon though. If your thing is leather... hey, go for it !
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Steven H
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| Posted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Quote: | | It isn't cut proof. |
And thats why its never used by metal smiths for aprons....er.....I mean....uhhh....never used for gloves....er....uhhh....
Steve leather is used for both of these in the metal working trades exactly because it is cut resistant. If you want to make the case that it wasn't used for armour because theres no historical listings, or survivals or some other context feel free but moder day usage( and for that matter in the context of gloves and aprons in the metal workign trades historically)stands in direct opposition to the claim that isn't cut resistant. I expirience the benfits of this property on an almost daily basis using a leather apron and gloves. |
Hello,
I use leather gloves in my little shop for the same reason as you.
But experimental archaeology clearly shows that the kind of cutting done with weapons is quite different from we find in the shop. I have leather for making hardened leather armour (which will work with practice blunts) and I make textile armour. If I take a sharp knife it is easier for me to cut the leather than the linen, canvas or wool. Without a razor edge I can't cut fabric with a knife - scissors are a must. My experiences with this are consistent with the posted results of tests using swords. Even hardened leather barely slows down the cut or thrust of a sword but as Michael Edelsons tests have show most sword geometries and arrows have great difficulty with textile armour.
-Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Hello,
I use leather gloves in my little shop for the same reason as you.
But experimental archaeology clearly shows that the kind of cutting done with weapons is quite different from we find in the shop. I have leather for making hardened leather armour (which will work with practice blunts) and I make textile armour. If I take a sharp knife it is easier for me to cut the leather than the linen, canvas or wool. Without a razor edge I can't cut fabric with a knife - scissors are a must. My experiences with this are consistent with the posted results of tests using swords. Even hardened leather barely slows down the cut or thrust of a sword but as Michael Edelsons tests have show most sword geometries and arrows have great difficulty with textile armour. |
Steve, i'm confused, are you addressing leather for aprons and gloves due to the cut resitant properties of leather, or are you back to the discussion of the historical use of leather as armour, for things like the buff coats, gauntlets, and leather helmets of the 16th and 17th centuries?
If you are addressing the use of leather for aprons and gloves I am NOT using cloth gloves or aprons for the work I do, its not going to hold up( read i'm going to get cut) to the sharp edges I work with all day long.
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Steven H
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| Posted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Karl Knisley wrote: | Hello
How about boiled leather? |
Please don't 
Please don't boil it. There are easier ways of using heat to harden leather for use in armour. If you search on armourarchive.org you will find extensive discussion of this.
As boiled leather relates to this thread though: I'm not aware of any examples of hardened leather being used as a stand alone armour. It was worn over mail (which is cut proof), to mitigate blunt damage. That's almost it's only use in armour in the medieval period.
-Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Leather Gambeon |
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Hi Chas,
Can I point you in the direction of the vendor 'Inner Bailey', (Google that name) who produce what they describe as a Viking gambeson, and quite remarkably use exactley the same descriptive text in your third repy on this thread!
It is a conjectural interpretation of the 'warrior coats' on the Vendel / Valsgarde plates, which I myself at present am also making .
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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