New kind of rapier grip? -- myArmoury.com

Jerry Knox · Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: New kind of rapier grip?

Hi everyone. I just fixed my wife's camera, so i can post some of my weapons now. :-)

Up first is this cut & thrust sword I hilted a while ago. I made it following a thought experiment where I tried to think of the most simple, yet most protective hilt for a cut and thrust blade, with the added goal of being very open and ambidextrous.

I didn't follow any examples whatsoever, but I know that very little is new in the world, and wondered if anyone had seen a hilt like this.

Note the way the thumb ring can also be used by the index finger, depending on whether one wants to be more cut or thrust oriented.

Sorry for the poor picture quality. "fixed" does not mean "good".

Jerry Knox · Posted: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject:

the views of how to grip it...

Gabriel Lebec · myArmoury Team

Not exactly like that, no, but it reminds me (loosely) of either a sinclair saber or the Italian example in the bottom-left of this feature article. Basically a combination of quillons and shell guard or knuckle guard, which I don't think is functionally unique but certainly not usually appearing as you've realized it here.

Anyway I look forward to seeing closer examples (or, undoubtedly, much better-informed opinions) of this basic guard form.
Cheers,
-GLL

Anders Backlund · Posted: Fri 18 Jan, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject:

Oooh, interesting! Happy

Vincent Le Chevalier · Posted: Sat 19 Jan, 2008 10:05 am Post subject:

I wonder if the ring really helps in your thrust-oriented grip? In my understanding, fingering the ricasso on rapiers and cut&thrust swords provides a better feel essentially by shifting the hand further towards the center of gravity, which does not really happen with this grip. Does the ring really change the mechanics of the grip?

The position of your hand relative to the quillons and edges is sowewhat similar to what Girard Thibault advocates for the rapier, the biggest difference being that your wrist seems to remain on the top of the pommel, when Thibault puts more on the side. Thibault's position seems more relaxed, and lines up the forearm better with handle. I think this could take a better advantage of the hilt's coverage as well...

Also, how easy is it to switch between these two grips? This could be important for a polyvalent sword.

I have seen saber hilts with just quillons and thumb ring, so your design seems like something logical to do to increase hand protection. But the use of these two grips you describe prevent the addition of a knucklebow, which would be impractical with the thrusting grip. Perhaps people tended to stick with one hand position, in order to be able to get better hand protection?

Jerry Knox · Posted: Mon 21 Jan, 2008 4:24 am Post subject:

I find that the ring actually increases control and sensitivity in the thrusting grip, much like the index-finger stud on a fishing rod does. The same could have been accomplished by cutting into the grip material, allowing the index finger to grip closer to the main axis of the blade and "hook" around the thicker portion of the grip, but would not have done double-duty as a thumb ring, which I really wanted. My favorite feature of this sword is that it can be used in "cutting mode" two-handed by gripping the pommel, which turns the largeish blade into a real meat cleaver.

My wrist could have been more in-line without discomfort, that's just how it ended up for the picture.

The ease of switching hand positions is pretty great. It is especially easy to go from cut to thrust, and not difficult to go back. The large ring allows me to just rotate the sword while touching my thumb-tip to my index-fingertip (think the "OK" sign) until it settles into either position.

Weekend Update: after using this sword in some light cutting and thrusting, I find that it definitely favors the cut due to the blade presence, but that in either grip, the ring feature allows more control than if it were not there. The index-finger grip DID definitely increase tip control the most though. Also noticed that with the thumb ring, it was slightly more difficult to use the back edge quickly after a forehand cut. Is this a common effect of thumbrings?

Thanks for the great replies everyone!

Anders Backlund · Posted: Mon 21 Jan, 2008 7:57 am Post subject:

I gotta say, this is awesome! I love this kind of innovative, out-of-the-box thinking when it comes to swords Great job, Jerry. Happy

Jerry Knox · Posted: Mon 21 Jan, 2008 8:25 am Post subject:

Thank you! I am very happy with this sword. It satisfies my desire for a rapier without sacrificing anything in battlefield capability. It might not be the very best sword in a duel, but it would work.

Also, there's just no way I could afford it any other way, as even full-price MRL stuff is pretty much out of my price range. I got the blade as MRL's "english knightly sword" a few years ago on super blowout sale for less than $100. The steel for the fittings I made was a few dollars, and the wood came from my back yard!

I'll post some more of my stuff when I get a spare minute. I have a few more "different" swords in the rack. Happy

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

The hilt you constructed for your sword strikes me as very similar in principle to the Dutch/Swedish sword of the 30-years war. These were very popular at the time and saw much use in the Swedish army and cavalry of Gustavus Adolphus (The Lion of the North).

Many survive in collections around Sweden. They span highly decorative and high quality weapons for officers to sturdy fighting weapons for regular soldiers. Functional and practical. I love them.
A pretty good example from the collection of Skokloster (an original and intact mid 17th C armoury), just south of where I live:

Jerry Knox · Posted: Mon 21 Jan, 2008 9:11 am Post subject:

Hah!

I knew they must have been done before. Isn't it great when you find yourself thinking along the same lines of people who lived centuries ago?

Thank you very much Peter! I know it doesn't show in the pictures, but the shells on my sword have incised lines around the piercing, which is also decorative in that the holes change diameter as they progress. Maybe I'll disassemble it and make the holes diamonds. I like the look of it on those old swords...

I wrapped my thumbring in chamois after using it for a while to increase comfort. Was that commonly done in the past, or was glove-use more the rule?

Great information. Thanks again!

Vincent Le Chevalier · Posted: Mon 21 Jan, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject:

The handle on the Swedish sword seems a bit shorter than on Jerry's sword, I think? Wouldn't it hamper the thrusting grip with the index in the ring? Though the pommel might lend itself to being covered by part of the palm...

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Jerry Knox · Posted: Tue 22 Jan, 2008 4:23 am Post subject:

The blade is about 34" long, with a mostly straight profile taper, which curves inward slightly at the point, no noticeable distal taper. The hilt, from shells to pommel nut is 7.5", of which just over 4" is grip. I haven't weighed it since adding the shells, but it was originally a bit over 2.5 lbs, I don't remember the POB, but it was fairly close, definitely within 6".

What's the size of the sword you showed, Peter?