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Jeremy V. Krause
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 Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2004 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Well I guess I can jump in,
I saw "The Passion" and thought it was a great movie, but I approached it as a praticing Catholic- and very non "evangelical right wing Christian." Though the movie was quite good I feel that it needs to be pointed out that despite what the media has said i.e. that Mel Gibson is a "orthodox Chatholic," this is not the case at all. Mel Gibson is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church but has formed his own "more Catholic than the Pope" version, and is therefore is schism. I just think that this is important to point out.
Also, I believe that the greatest thing that this movie can bring to Christians is a better understanding of the love of Christ- not a spring board for gun-toting, fundementalist, isolationalist anger. Evangelical Christians are sometimes scary people and I feel that fundementalism is as much a scourge on Christianity as the Jihadists are a scourge on Islam. Unfortunately, fundementalism is growing. . .
On a side note- ofcourse "The Passion" is not anti-semetic- that's just rabble rousing and a bored media.
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David McElrea
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2004 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jeremy,
You wrote: | Quote: | Well I guess I can jump in,
I saw "The Passion" and thought it was a great movie, but I approached it as a praticing Catholic- and very non "evangelical right wing Christian." Though the movie was quite good I feel that it needs to be pointed out that despite what the media has said i.e. that Mel Gibson is a "orthodox Chatholic," this is not the case at all. Mel Gibson is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church but has formed his own "more Catholic than the Pope" version, and is therefore is schism. I just think that this is important to point out.
Also, I believe that the greatest thing that this movie can bring to Christians is a better understanding of the love of Christ- not a spring board for gun-toting, fundementalist, isolationalist anger. Evangelical Christians are sometimes scary people and I feel that fundementalism is as much a scourge on Christianity as the Jihadists are a scourge on Islam. Unfortunately, fundementalism is growing. . .
On a side note- ofcourse "The Passion" is not anti-semetic- that's just rabble rousing and a bored media. |
The interesting thing is, up until now no one has attacked the beliefs of any particular expression of the faith.
Yes, strictly speaking, Mel is "schismatic" in the sense that he worships outside the context of mainstream Catholicism. His beliefs, simply put, seem to be very much "Pre-Vatican II". It is interesting that the Catholic heirarchy did not feel that it was necessary to criticise him for this.
As for your comments on the fearsome "gun-toting" (and presumably baby-eating) evangelicals-- you might like to get to know some  Evangelicalism is a term that can apply to believers from backgrounds as diverse as Baptist, Anglican, Lutheran, Pentecostal and indeed Catholic (with regards to the latter, think of St. Augustine, St. Francis, Erasmus and the "Spirituali" of the 16th century). "Evangelical", could be defined (with some oversimplification) as a position that has a high regard for the Bible and an emphasis on the good news of God's love as revealed in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus-- all of this within the orthodox frame-work that Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and classical Protestant Christians all recognise (i.e Trinitarian etc.).
Evangelical does not equal "right-wing", although there may be a strong representation of Evangelicals in the conservative camp in the States. Many of the great social reformers came from within that camp.
While I would not consider myself "fundamentalist" per se, I think you will find that few fundamentalist Christians are likely to threaten your life-- the comparison with "Jihadists" seems more than a little unfair.
It might be best to remember, as you say, that this movie-- and more importantly, the actual event-- is about bringing "a better understanding of the love of Christ". Sorry to "preach"-- I couldn't let that stand, though
Yours,
David
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2004 8:03 am Post subject: |
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David,
I so appreciate the mild tone of your response which- i must admit- does reflect a more balance response than mine expressed in the heat of reactionary emotion. Obviously you have a sound and balanced understanding of the Christian faith. I will maintain that their is a significant segment of "evangelical, fundementalists" that have recently arisen who hurt the Christian faith. ESPECIALLY those espousing "End of Time" theology and an unbalanced obsession with the book of revelations. I do not use the word evangelical in it's proper historical meaning. Indeed Pope John Paul II has vehemently called for a new evangelization.
My passion on this subject is not limited to the millenialists and end of timer's but also to the EWTN "more catholic than the Pope" Mother Angelica desciples. The ideas expressed by this camp in not in line with the mainline hierarchy of the Church. Indeed the Bishop of Birmingham Alabama, where EWTN is located, a holy man whom I have met, rarely if never has appeared on their broadcast. Now don't get me wrong- I am not a liberal Catholic- I like Mass done the right way and I follow the teachings of the Church. I do not however think that the 50's were the golden age of both the Church and America.
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James Aldrich
Location: Green Bay WI Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2004 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | Well I guess I can jump in,
I saw "The Passion" and thought it was a great movie, but I approached it as a praticing Catholic- and very non "evangelical right wing Christian." Though the movie was quite good I feel that it needs to be pointed out that despite what the media has said i.e. that Mel Gibson is a "orthodox Chatholic," this is not the case at all. Mel Gibson is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church but has formed his own "more Catholic than the Pope" version, and is therefore is schism. I just think that this is important to point out. |
I believe you are mistaken and have fallen prey to the media confusion of Mel Gibson with his father. If, as you say, it is important to point out that Mel Gibson is a schismatic, it is equally important to provide some evidence for your assertion. What is the basis for your claim that Mel Gibson is not in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church?
JSA
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2004 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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It is true that Mel Gibson's Church is in schism, olong with the Society of St. Pius X. This is not a matter of opinion- Mr. Gibson's church uses priests who have left the SSPX who have been directly or indirectly annointed by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who was excommunicaated by the Church and died without repenting, thus these priests are illicit. It is true that John Paul II has been trying to work with the priests of SSPX to bring them back into communion (I don't know about Mel Gibson's priests, but I think their are less than 5 of them." In any case the priests of Mel Gibson's Church and those who worship in his chuch in California are not in Communion with the Church. Now if you ask them they will say that the Church erred in the charges introduced in the Second Vatican Counsil and so THEY are keeping the REAL faith NOT the Church. Yet this voilates that basic premise that you cannot be "more Catholic than the Pope."
This isn't to say that they are bad people. They just aren't Roman Catholic. Bishops can give permission for the Tridentine mass to be celebrated in their diocese and this is what Mel Gibson and those with him should be doing if they are attatched to a former religious rite.
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James Aldrich
Location: Green Bay WI Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2004 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | | It is true that Mel Gibson's Church is in schism, olong with the Society of St. Pius X. |
All true-- except for the very important detail that Mel Gibson is not a member of the organization you refer to as "Mel Gibson's church." What is your basis for the assertion that Mel Gibson is a member of this schismatic organization? You have yet to provide a shred of evidence for your claim which therefore remains gossip at best and libel at worst. Please provide documentation for your allegation or withdraw it.
JSA
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Jay Barron
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2004 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Man, I'm glad I was raised a protestant! 
Constant and true.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2004 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Kinda is takin' on a Thirty Years War feel except the Protestants get to spectate this time . That you have faith is the important thing in these "separation of church and state " rhetoric times not where you practice it . Just however my
opinion which is worth what you paid for it which is nothing .
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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I saw the movie several weeks ago, and while I thought that it was a fine production I wasn't terribly moved by the experience. Many of the members of my church family found it to be a highly emotional experience, unlike me. I believe that this is due to two things: First, in my current profession I've seen people, alive as well as dead, who have been injured and traumatized far more than what was depicted in The Passion. Consequently, the graphic depiction of the scourging and crusifiction didn't affect me as it did others. Secondly, in my former life I was an actor. As such I have a hard time suspending my disbelief and really "getting into" a movie. I'm always looking at the how and why of the production elements. So while I thought that it was a fine production it really didn't touch me on a spiritual level as it has with some.
In the end though I really have to applaud Mel Gibson for having the commitment to see this project through. This certainly isn't a topic that is warmly embraced by the Hollywood hierarchy. The fact that The Passion was a labor of love for M.G. is evident in the final product. Regardless of the motivations involved I admire the mans commitment to his beliefs. I wish there were more people with his money and influence who had the same qualities.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2004 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
In the end though I really have to applaud Mel Gibson for having the commitment to see this project through. This certainly isn't a topic that is warmly embraced by the Hollywood hierarchy. The fact that The Passion was a labor of love for M.G. is evident in the final product. Regardless of the motivations involved I admire the mans commitment to his beliefs. I wish there were more people with his money and influence who had the same qualities. |
Whatever response anyone may have to the religious motives of Mel Gibson will not detract from the fact that his film is a remarkable piece of art.
His efforts have been amply rewarded in the only manner that Hollywood respects. The boxoffice results have already placed it ahead of "Jurassic Park" as the number seven American boxoffice draw of all time, and it looks as if it will soon overtake even "Return of the King" and hold the number six spot. The soundtrack album has gone gold, and the DVD sales will probably be spectacular also.
This film may ultimately be seen by as many people as have ever seen any other single film, as it makes its way around the world.
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Markus Haider
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2004 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| James Aldrich wrote: |
All true-- except for the very important detail that Mel Gibson is not a member of the organization you refer to as "Mel Gibson's church." What is your basis for the assertion that Mel Gibson is a member of this schismatic organization? You have yet to provide a shred of evidence for your claim which therefore remains gossip at best and libel at worst. Please provide documentation for your allegation or withdraw it.
JSA |
I have looked it up, and this is what I have found:
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Gibson does not belong to any of the larger Traditionalist groupings, but to an independent congregation, with some 70 members, called the Holy Family. Originally, most of the congregation attended Mass at another chapel which was then taken over by the Society of St Pius X. Gibson and others left in protest though the reasons for the split are obscure. Gibson then came up with $2.8 million to build and maintain a new Mission-style church complex in a little valley in the mountains north-west of Los Angeles, near Malibu Beach. According to public financial records, Gibson is its chief executive officer and its sole benefactor.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general645.html |
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2004 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Thank you so much Markus! As I did not have the initiative to look it up. And so, and this should settle the matter. Mel Gibson is in schism and has excommunicated himself through participating in a schismatic sect. Hopefully SSPX and Mel Gibson's personal priests can work with Rome to restore their status.
The fact remains that he has made a really good movie, which is free from doctrinal error. Many Bishops have said they like it.
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James Aldrich
Location: Green Bay WI Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2004 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | Thank you so much Markus! As I did not have the initiative to look it up. And so, and this should settle the matter. Mel Gibson is in schism and has excommunicated himself through participating in a schismatic sect. Hopefully SSPX and Mel Gibson's personal priests can work with Rome to restore their status.
The fact remains that he has made a really good movie, which is free from doctrinal error. Many Bishops have said they like it. |
So your "evidence" is more hearsay and innuendo taken out of context from an opinion piece with the undisguised object of discrediting Mel Gibson and his film? If you follow the link provided by the person who did your "research" for you, you will find a self-identified anti-cult website which is also features articles dedicated to the propositions that Mel Gibson's film is both unreservedly anti-Semitic and non-Biblical. There is considerable anti-Catholic nuance as well. Be sure to read their disclaimer. If you consider this authoritative for pronouncing a person schismatic and excommunicate, you are more grievously misinformed than I suspected.
Before I suggest some more appropriate sources for examining the question at hand, allow me to clarify the relevant issue: The only reliable evidence for the status of an individual as schismatic or excommunicate is the declaration of a
competent ecclesiastic authority [Emphasis added to identify a term with a specific canonical meaning.] So unless you can provide some credentials as such, or a documentable declaration by such, your assertions regarding Mel Gibson's relationship to the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy See remain opinions. And badly formed opinions at that, as they rest. by your own admission, on unresearched hearsay.
I suggest you consult the Catholic Encyclopedia on the topics of schism and excommunication. If you are amenable to instruction you may gain some valuable insight.
In the realm of opinion, perhaps you will give at least as much consideration to Catholic sources as to the obviously biased single source provided so far:
Catholic apologist declares Mel Gibson a member of the Catholic Church:http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?R...groupnum=0
If you follow the link around and also consult http://www.catholic.org you will find extensive coverage of Mel Gibson's status as a Catholic. The prevailing opinion of many persons more qualified than you or I is that Mel Gibson is indeed in communion with Rome, albeit with some concerns regarding certain statements attributed to him. [Emphasis added to identify hearsay.] Nowhere will you find an authoritative statement that Mel Gibson is a schismatic or excommunicate. You can likewise conduct a fruitless search of the official records of the Church for such a statement.
If you are still unwilling to do the research, at least ask yourself the following questions based on documentable events:
Why would EWTN air at least two complimentary interviews with a schisnatic excommunicate?
Why would the Holy Father arrange a private screening for and subsequently offer praise for a film produced by a schismatic excommunicate? [The Holy Father's silence on the issue should be conclusive to a faithful Catholic.]
Why would a schismatic excommunicate engage a canonically regular priest to celebrate Mass on his film set? Why would the priest do it? Why would the priest's bishop approve it?
And finally, if your argument rests on Mel Gibson's association with SSPX, you can fold that tent right now. Mel Gibson's only associations with SSPX are his differences with them, as corroborated by your own source.
I end my participation in this thread with an appeal to you as a Catholic gentleman to refrain from defaming a fellow Catholic Christian with unsubstantiated and non-authoritative accusations.
JSA
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James Aldrich
Location: Green Bay WI Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2004 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Oops! I lied; one more post. I meant to provide the link http://www.catholic.com which is, in my opinion, much more useful than the .org site.
Mea culpa.
JSA[/i]
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2004 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder whal gives you so much steam on this matter? The fact remains that Mr. Gibson has established a schismatic sect with illicit priests formerly of SSPX. Maybe he established this and spent millions of dollars and does not attend- that seems strange. Also the term excommunication is not 100% with a formal declaration by the competant church authority. Indeed anyone who converts from Catholicsm excommunicates themselves. Also there is no reason why the Pope would dislike "The Passion," because of Mel Gibson's status. And EWTN has their opinion shaped because of their sometimes thinly veiled disdain for the changes of the Second Vatican Counsel. I also withdrawl from this debate as I am beginning to find it strange in that I am expending too much energy in it. Drinks anyone? Cheers, Jeremy
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Barron wrote: | | Man, I'm glad I was raised a protestant! |
...or an agnostic/atheist.
My sword site
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Jay Barron
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2004 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Björn Hellqvist wrote: |
...or an agnostic/atheist. |
Whatever. 
Constant and true.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 20 Apr, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Be *VERY* careful here gentlemen. This conversation has proceeded well, but some of you are in danger of crossing the line. Feel free to disagree but do it in a calm and mature manner.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 21 Apr, 2004 2:35 am Post subject: |
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So way back on p.1 or 2 of this thread, I mentioned that if the movie did well in the US, it would probably show up here in Thailand. Well, it has done well, as reported in a post above, and it opens this week in Chiang Mai.
--ElJay
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Markus Haider
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| Posted: Wed 21 Apr, 2004 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Hello James,
I was not directly addressed, but I find the point of Mr. Gibsons church quite interesting. I hope you don't mind if I add my thoughts on this:
Another look on this site brings these two things:
Ken, We know the great movie, but the Directory is basically a new and unknown personality. I just discovered that Mel does not accept the Transubstantiation in the Novus Ordo Mass. I just heard this recently, don't know whether or not it is true. One has to be sure of things before acting. So now, accept the film with great gratitude. God bless. Fr. Bob Levis
Dear Mary, My prayer is that Mel is still searching, progressing toward the full Truth, and that one day soon, he will proudly say that he is a Roman Catholic in fulll fidelity to the Pope and the Magisterium.
If someone refuses the Transubstantiation of the Novus Ordo, how can he still be a Catholic? I mean, it is the heart of the whole mass.
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If you follow the link around and also consult http://www.catholic.org you will find extensive coverage of Mel Gibson's status as a Catholic.
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I have neither found anything on www.catholic.org nor on www.catholic.com using their search engine and directory regarding Mel Gibson and his status as member of any church. Can you please provide us with a direct link?
The link I posted was also the only thing after 30 min searching in the Internet, which provided something of the status on Mel Gibson and the Society of St. Pius X.
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