[Brian Jensen]

how long was chainmail? im maybe going to make one myself, and i wanna know how long they where,
ive seen pictures of it going down to the just above the knee, protection the thighs, was this commen?

[Jeremy V. Krause]

As in all things, well, that depends on the time period. Much of the mail during my current period of interest c. 1075-1125, and anyone can correct me if I am wrong- was characterised my an integral coif (hood), sleeves half the way up the forearm perhaps to the wrist (but without mufflers), and a length to the middle of the thigh or maybe a bit longer. Folks can chime in about other periods,

[Robert Zamoida]

As Jeremy said, it depends on your period of interest. What I would suggest is that you get a hold of some books from Osprey Publishing; the color plates are very detailed and can provide great inspiration for what ever type of mail you wish. Here's the link.

Osprey Publishing

[Elling Polden]

During the 13th century, chain hauberks where knee lenght, maybe a bit shorter, with full length arms, and sometimes integral chain mittens.
This was worn over a light padding, witch went down to the waist. The tights where covered by padded hose, wich reached to the knees, while the lower leggs where covered by chain.
(according to "the Kings Mirror", a norwegian text from the 1250's, mentioning amongst other things the desirable armour for a royal retainer.)

Yours
Elling

[J. Margeson]

Mr. Polden's response is pretty accurate. I've been studying the patterning of maille suits worn from 1100-1400 and I've seen two patterns repeated; (1) hauberk extending to mid-thigh or knee with attached sleeves and gauntlets and (2) hauberk extended to knee or mid-thigh with sleeves extending to mid-bicep and separate sleeves with integral gauntlets. Full suits almost always have separate coifs and one legging for each leg extending to the toe. Does this sound accurate?

I learned a little late in my maille projects that it is very useful to go to museum websites to see the real thing before starting a project.

-John

[Jeremy V. Krause]

In Oakeshott's "A Knight and His Armour" it states that the coif was integrated until around 1200. During the period 1075-1200 sleeves were usually included extending from the middle of the forearm to the wrist. integrated "mufflers" or mail protection for the hand- essentially small mail sacks with openings so that the hand could be easily removed when not in use. If Erik Schmid (perhaps the pre-eminent mail expert in the world) would chime in we would all learn a thing or three. . . Thanks.

[J. Margeson]

I haven't seen an integrated coif yet. That's interesting. And I'll have to find a copy of Oakeshott's book. Another issue that comes to mind is how these pieces of armor were held in place. I'm just starting to create strapping with buckles for my maille suit. It’s a relatively intuitive process of finding where the maille should lie but getting it right is going to be difficult. Does "A Knight and His Armor" mention anything about strapping?

-John

[Jeremy V. Krause]

No this book does not go into much detail about this- but you may have to enlighten me as to what you mean by "held in place." I guess that it is my, perhaps mistaken impression that the hauberk was simply worn like a very large shirt over the gambesson and fastened around the waist with a belt or integrated sword belt/scabbard. If the individual is carrying a shield this may be slung over the shoulder by another strap. Sometimes, unfortunately, when it comes to the fine details of historical arms and armour we are often left to illustrations, especially with more perishable materials like leather.

[Allan Senefelder]

While indo persian maille both with and without plates tends to be split up the front and laced closed the European
examples of maille i've seen tend to be split a bit at the neck ( the surviving examples i've seen are all 15th-16th
century specimins and have a neck line that when closed sits very close up on the throat if not actually forming a
collar ) to allow the head to fit through its oppening and that split is either laced or hooked closed after putting the
shirt on . The split is almost always in the front . When the split is closed by hooks the hooks are simply on
a ring and the hook is put through a ring in the maille on the ither side of the split . Chaussets if laced on
were done from the back of the leg like chaps based on illustrations . The only pair i've ever seen up close
was a very late indo persian set of the tube attached to a belt variety that I once owned .

[J. Margeson]

"...but you may have to enlighten me as to what you mean by "held in place." I guess that it is my, perhaps mistaken impression that the hauberk was simply worn like a very large shirt over the gambesson and fastened around the waist with a belt or integrated sword belt/scabbard."

I am referring to "full suits" of maille, which to cover the wearer from head to hand to toe. If the sleeves (there must be better term than sleeves) are not attached to the hauberk they need to be held in place on the shoulder or upper arm. The leggings also require something to hold them in place on the upper thigh and waist. I’ve seen waist belts used to hold them up. This is what I meant by "held in place." Some form of strapping is needed, the patterns for which I can merely speculate.

Maille patterns have been very illusive when doing research for my maille project. I've looked illustrations and museum pieces and have an image that I’m used for a model. Its attached. I believe is it representative of a 13th century knight. If anyone has a resource for maille patterns please, please share it.

-John

[Jeremy V. Krause]

That's a cool illustration. In this case the sleeves (maybe they're called just well. . . sleeves ) are attatched and so are all of the illustrations I have seen. I believe that the short sleeve and sleeve-less that we so often se reproduced are decidedly of the 14th. c. or the advent of plate mail, (a period I currently have less interest in). Oakeshott states that the chausis (sp?) (leggings) were suspended from straps or chains to a belt-like thing around the waist, but I've got to look this up when I get home.
I have a specific interest that I hope someone might know the answer to- as I am interested in the period of maile that predates integrated mufflers for the hands- just how were the hands pretected and in what form?

[Allan Senefelder]

The time line "cliff notes " style for maill garment length goes like this 6th-11th centuries short sleeves mid thigh to
knee length , 12th-early14th full length sleeves often ending in mittens and knee length , from the second quarter of the
14th century on as plate comes to cover first the limbs then all the body full length sleeves no mitten and back to mid
thigh length . The shorter shirts are to be found through out however, just as there are examples of full length
hauberks from the 15th century to be found and in certain more isolated parts of Europe well into the 17th century .

[Jeremy V. Krause]

And so we see the differing opinions on the matter. . . One especially sees this when discussing historical armour where less attention has been given than to historical arms. . . I guess we have to really go back to the scholarly folks like Erik Schmid who we can trust.

[Allan Senefelder]

I've actually found the opposite to be true . No shortage of books avaliable on armour from which to work but the same
few titles on arms specifically and a few dual texts with more of an overview feel . There seems to be plenty of period armour for sale as well with far fewer blades and most museums here in the states ( I've only been to the tower armouries
and the wallace collection so i can't say what europes like ) seem layed out with armour as the primary and weapons
second .

[J. Margeson]

I've checked Mr. Schmid's website and his products are indisputably some of the best I've seen. I'm still not satisfied, however, with the amount of information available about the patterning of full maille suits. If the sleeves were attached, as some specimens undoubtedly were, I would suspect that the weave of the maille (i.e. width of wire versus interior diameter) would have to be pretty loose. I say this because the shoulder joint is supporting a good deal of weight and needs to be flexible enough to make the soldier effective in combat. Strapping the sleeves to the shoulder with a back harness would elevate some of the stress on the maille.

I think Jeremy is right; we need to get an expert to weigh in. In the mean time I've just finished the first strap on my hauberk and its starting to look like the image I have in my head. Depending on the input I get in this string I'll decide whether or not to attach the sleeves to the hauberk. It’s not too late.

-John

[Erik D. Schmid]

Mr. Margeson,

What exactly are you looking for with regards to mail patterns? Are you looking for a pattern book like you can find in modern fabric stores? If so then you are in for a rude awakening as there isn't one. A good precentage of European mail shirts are tailored like the one shown on Trevor Barkers site: Butted Mail. The shirt he is referring to is the one catalogued as A2 in the Wallace Collection. They do not always display the amount of tailoring shown on this shirt, but do have some of it. Generally they only have the shoulder expansions.

The arms on European shirts are connected with a ninety-degree seam under the armpit. The sleeves are simply extensions of the shoulder. Oriental shirts are the same except they have a triangular gusset for the armpit.

The one thing they all have in common is that the sleeves are always connected to the body. They do not have straps holding the sleeves on. The links also do not have to be more robust to support the weight of the garment.

[Brian W. Rainey]

[Jeremy V. Krause]

Thank you for chiming in Mr. Schmid,
Let me say that your work is beautiful- but you know that already. The only sad thing about knowing that such high quality maile exists is the feeling that what ever other product one must settle for due to cost, one knows that what they have is well, sub-standard.