[Alfonso Asensio]

Hello

This is a topic that keeps jumping into my head although it may have been discussed here before. I am also not sure if this forum, is the right place to post it

I grew up during the late 70s and early 80s, at that time it was very common for people to be interested in Easter martial arts and there was a big popular culture push in that direction, (from Hong Kong movies to Iron Fist comics). Because of the exotic flavor of the trend, and together with very valid examples of teaching centers and professionals, along came a large amount of people who used the remoteness of Asia and the general lack of information of the public to portray themselves as something they were not (or at least not at the level they pretended). I would think I was not the only one who saw people boasting of having studied under some mystical Japanese master or holding the secretive knowledge of a deadly kung fu move (the attitude went from international organizations masters to neighborhood kids with nunchakus tucked under the belt).
Slowly, this trend died out as people became more informed or, perhaps, discerning (or was supplanted by new fads in "special forces combat", "street combat" and, the latest I have seen in lethal nomenclatures, "prison combat") and the Kung fu craze became just another area of interest.

It may be me, but in a way I am seeing the same tendency in the recent popularity of western Martial arts (I am not sure if this is the accepted term).

Where 30 years ago terms like Wu-shu, mawashigeri or Shaolin (even "ninja" was an exotic word once) hold the secret to the mysteries of Asia, now a days, old Latin, Medieval German and XVII century Spanish lingo comes out as the key to locked knowledge. People study with masters in remote corners of Europe. They find gladiatorial techniques that have survived intact through the centuries. And now, like before different organizations and grades seem to come out all the time (once as a kid I met somebody who, affirmed, was "lotus belt” in some obscure Japanese discipline)

I am, of course, not saying that current efforts to rediscover and develop WMA are all like this. But I wonder if development in a new field always has to be accompanied by a rearguard of disinformation and pretense that some may use to try to present themselves as something the may not be.
Am I thinking too much? Has anybody else felt something similar? I would like if possible to know other, more informed, opinions about this.

Best regards

[Bill Grandy]

I have to say, I haven't seen this. Yes, there've been a few people who've claimed to have some sort of secret lineage of power that traces back to some master Viking chieftan wizard, or some such, but as far as I've seen those have been few and far between.

Though I don't doubt at some point within the upcoming years seeing some "X-treme Western Martial Arts Annihialation Technique" videos... and perhaps some wire-work films such as "Crouching Talhoffer, Hidden Ringeck" and "Blind Fiore"...

[Robin Smith]

Problem is that there is no "big popular push" for WMA. Your average movie-goer, joe sixpack, or mall ninja have no idea what WMA is. If they do, they often associate it with reenactment and the SCA. Hell, many of my SCA friends don't even know much about WMA. Generally, you have to pretty much be in the know to even know what WMA is. Plus, Hollywood has no intention of trying to include WMA techniques in movie fighting. So, I suppose I could say that I don't really see the trend the way you do, obviously....

[George Hill]

[Gabriel Lebec]

Hello George,

Perhaps you can flesh out that post with some examples, or even anecdotes and opinions? It would more effectively further the discussion (and back up your own statement).

Cheers,
-GLL

[Sean Flynt]

The persistent public misperception of the western martial arts as clumsy and brutish works against the creation of "mall knights" to rival the billions of "mall ninjas". Plus, basic human fascination with other cultures drives at least some of the west's fascination with Asian martial arts. When we want something exotic, we don't turn to our own past, even though it might seem much more exotic to us than does modern Asian culture (if only we'd just take the time to question what we "know" about our own past). Now, a century from now, when Asia is the economic, military and cultural superpower, cool Japanese kids may embrace the mystical ancient art of the longsword. Look what happened when the cross-cultural fascination tables were turned once before--European armour influenced the development of Japanese armour and Japanese warriors ended up wearing cabasets! They got the worst part of that deal, I think. Sallets would have been better in-tune with Japanese armour.

"Crouching Talhoffer," indeed! Too funny, Bill!

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Michael Ekelmann]

[Robin Smith]

[George Hill]

[Jared Smith]

In the West, you have various forms of martial competition that are arguably the oldest known from an archeology view point.

One can look back at the artwork in pyramids at least 2000 B.C. and earlier time frame and assert that unarmed wrestling (pancreation) was already a Western "unarmored" martial art long before similar things are currently known to have existed in the East. At least in terms of "controversial legend", we could even discuss Western European heros bringing these arts to the East roughly around the time of Alexander the Great. If looking for early gladiatorial combat, then within Persian Syrian cities dating to around 1000 B.C. you can find ruins (Tyre) that appear to have been the basis for the size and proportions of the Greek Olympic style stadium as well as chariot races, and various forms of combat, as well as the origins of words like "Heracules."

[Chad Arnow]

[Shawn Henthorn]

"Crouching Talhoffer, Hidden Ringeck"...too funny...can't breath!! Seriously though I can remember alot more of this sort of thing before its popularity really started to grow. Now more and more people know better and teh accecpted sources are alot smaller and not as mysterious as our Asian counterparts.

[George Hill]

[Alfonso Asensio]

Thanks all for the thoughts on this.

You have mention several reasons why the cases of WMA now and EMA in the past are different and several why they are similar

Although EMA can be very traditional and rich, in the WMA case, the approach people are taking looks a bit more "scholarly" if I can use the term freely. In one side there is a very strong push for historical respect from all parties. In other, most of the tecniques you are all using had to be researched out of books and manuals as there seems to be no living tradition to feed from
Maybe this means that the "entry requirements" for people to be interested in WMA are a bit higher than the ones for EMA were 30 years ago?

I wonder if this is making a difference between both

Robin, funny you should mention Japanese SCA because that is all the SCA I have known so far. It is interesting to see them absorbed in something that is so "exotic"from an asian-centric point of view. People coming from western groups have always mentioned how much care they put in, not only look historically acurrate but also looking plain good (velvet and satin abound), but that is Japan for you; perfeccionism.

[Chad Arnow]

[George Hill]

[Chad Arnow]

[Ed Toton]

So far I've seen a pretty healthy amount of humility on the part of the WMA practitioners I've met. Of course egos will come into it at one time or another; it's human nature. But from what I've seen so far, there's a culture of respect, and as someone already put it, a "scholarly" sort of approach to it.

Just my humble observation, from someone who admittedly did not witness the edge/flat debate.

[Lafayette C Curtis]