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S. Mighton





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PostPosted: Sun 14 Oct, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Maciejowski questions         Reply with quote

I have attached a plate from the Maciejowski bible that I have a couple questions about. Any help is appreciated.

1) In the upper-left region of the picture, the tip of a falchion-like blade can be seen protruding above the head of a man in a steel skull-cap. Weapons of this type are well-represented throughout the Maciejowski bible. Can anyone point me to pictures of a real museum piece of this type?

2) In the lower-middle region of the picture there is man who has been run through with a spear, which was broken in the process. His mail is noticeably dark in colour, while the everyone else's mail appears silvery. This phenomenon of distinctly different colours of mail is prevalent both in the Maciejowski and in other sources I have seen (I've even seen a picture depicting normal silver-coloured mail alongside pink mail). Did people actually colour their mail somehow or is this is just creative license on the part of the artists?



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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2007 12:04 am    Post subject: Maciejowski bible Question         Reply with quote

Well, I dont know about any surviving weapons from that time, but as for the maille........they would often have it "Tinned" which was good metal protection ( not only maille but various metal parts too including shield-bosses, etc.) ........ and of course some parts were "Black from the forge" or blackened or Browned by various processes, most of which are lost to us but we have our own equivalents. I read the other day that some old recipies included some obnoctious ingredients that would make us "rejoyce with gladness" to be able to get our metal bluing/browning from a local gun-shop ! Eek!

Cheers !

Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2007 12:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you have tried drawing medevial battle scenes, you will quickly notice that you end up with a LOT of mail, metal and white gambesons. This means that half the picture is more or less the same bland grey. Varying the hue for pure artistic reasons is quite viable.

As a sidenote, a friend of mine is reenacting the guy with the glaive on the left Happy

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2007 10:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have never seen any weapon like that one in any museum. It's closest cousin may be the falchion in Durham Cathedral treasure house.

The mail links could be left forge blackened? It could be tinned though I have never seen an acocunt of tinning mail they tin other things. Could be steel mail instead of standard iron. Could be artist creativity. I do not think you can ever really know. Now if you are lookign for something more solid there are a few decent inventories from the 2nd half of the 13th... though you will never know what these items looked like.. Eek! All sources have their strengths and weeknesses.

RPM
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John Cooksey




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2007 11:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is it just me, or does it look the fellow in the blue get-up (right center field) has a sword with a lobed pommel?
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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S. Mighton





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PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2007 12:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John Cooksey wrote:
Is it just me, or does it look the fellow in the blue get-up (right center field) has a sword with a lobed pommel?


Yes, the guy in the blue surcoat who's getting speared definitely has a five-lobed pommel on his sword.


One more question, for anyone who knows. The foot soldiers at the left edge of the page are wearing what appears to be some sort of padded neck armour. What are these called ,and would the mailed horsemen be wearing similar items under their coifs?
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2007 1:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is that a double wrap belt I spy on the scabbard of green surcoat and darkmail?
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2007 1:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Its called a Godenak on some sites or Maciejowski Chopper. Some refute calling it this, saying the Godenak is a form of mace. As far as I have seen, one has never been discovered. Search "Godenak" (though the term may be incorrectly used)...
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Dawit Koho





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PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2007 1:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I try to wear it under my mail and neck and also quilty hands are working.
But for these hand a donīt have any strong supported effigy.

[img]

For example on this picture - http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail1.gif
If you look more details on his neck ,you can see points of sewing ,but on sleeve there is nothing.
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail3.gif
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail2.gif

Did they have uncovered hands?[/img]
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2007 1:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

S. Mighton wrote:

One more question, for anyone who knows. The foot soldiers at the left edge of the page are wearing what appears to be some sort of padded neck armour. What are these called ,and would the mailed horsemen be wearing similar items under their coifs?


It has no name, but the knigittts would wear one as well.

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...&d.gif

Sometimes, they would even be worn on the outside of the coif:

(from http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Ee.3.59/bytext )

Since the padded coif only covers the skull, and the neck is one of the most wounerable parts of the body, both to blunt trauma and cutting, additional protection is called for; While a mail coif might prevent you from having your arteries cut, a blow to the side of the neck is still not very much fun.

Yours truly, in center, with padded collar. (The sign says "Pauper knights, 30 schillings", Pauper Knights beeing the scandinavian name for french toast...)

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2007 1:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, I'm most curious about the non-metallic body armor worn by the two foot soldiers at the left. Right now I suppose they're just ordinary padded jacks/gambesons/whatever, but I'm not sure so can somebody confirm or deny this conjecture? The pattern of dots, in particular, looks rather intriguing. Would they represent studded reinforcements (very unlikely, I know) or just plain stitching?
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They are plain gambesons. The dots show the spaced seams, to distinguish them from regular garments.
In other plates, you can definitely see that they are quite soft.

A interesting point is the very defined transition form shoulder to arm. Some of the norwegian texts, at least, use the prasing "Arming coat and panzer (gambeson)", which could indicate that one would wear a sleeveless gambeson on top of a sleeved arming coat.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Dawit Koho





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Nov, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What do you think is it possible to combine padded hands like is shown in Morgan bible with ring mail hands over it?
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Nov, 2007 7:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quite.
The best way to do so is to stitch the mail to a piece of leather, which is then stitched to the padded mitten.
The pictures seem to sugest that there where little padding in the integrated mittens, based on the way they hang when not on the hand.
This would probably be a question of personal taste, however. Hand protection seems not to have been highly prioritized, as many otherwise fully armoured knights are shown with bare hands, and there are few examples of high medevial hand protection not part of a full armour.
Sword and buckler fencers would wear white sheepskin gloves (seen i I.33 and Manesse, and on civilians in the Mac) but these do not seem to be armoured.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Reinier van Noort





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 4:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

About those padded collars; they clearly have an opening on the (right) side, but what keeps them closed?
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Reinier van Noort wrote:
About those padded collars; they clearly have an opening on the (right) side, but what keeps them closed?


Buttons, most likely. They are found in several other garments in the manuscripts as well. However, in the Mac the artists do not draw buttons, even when the garment obviously includes them.


Gardecorps with buttoned neckline. Also featured is the white sheepskin gloves mentioned above, and the 1260's Paris Hilton, with pooch.


The same garment in Edward the Confessor, but shown with buttons.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Reinier van Noort





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So would that mean some kind of metal button and a fabric flap that closes over them? Or something different?
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 7:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mine has two simple cloth buttons. Metal buttons where not yet common.

How to make:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~Marc-Carlson/...uttons.htm

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Reinier van Noort





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the link! That sure is useful.

I started making a collar a few days ago, as I got annoyed with handsewing a gambeson and wanted something else to look at for a while.

How is yours made?

I started with rectangular flap of fabric with a small hole in the centre for my neck, and with an opening to a side; like this:



The padded collar is sewn onto this. I have nothing to base this on, but I feared that with just a collar, I would get a gaping hole between my gambeson and my collar, right where the vulnerable spot on the throat is located. This flap keeps the collar in place and down.

It sits pretty well, and fits snugly underneath my WIP gambeson. If only I hadn't made it just a bit too tight (a 1cm-2cm longer collar would have fitted so much better).

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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mine goes all the way up to the head, so that there is no large gaps between it and the arming cap. To do this you have to cut it into shape, to fit your chin and the back of your head.
Construction wise it is very simple beeing made from four layers of woolen blanket between two layers of linen.



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Collar.jpg


"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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