[Harold R.]

What was his response?

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Angus Trim]

[Nathan Keysor]

I don't know Angus Trim but I would like to say a few words in his defense. Sometimes s@#% happens. People like Angus Trim make it possible for people like us to own and play with these toys we like so much. It would be one thing if he did not "make it right" but I don't see that he has had a chance to do that. There is an option if you want something done right: Do it yourself. Spend the long hours learning and perfecting the art of making swords and armour and then you never have to wait for a sword to show up on your doorstep or be dissapointed if something turns out different than how you envisioned it. I'm not saying that Mr Trim didn't make a mistake but haven't we all?

[John Wehr]

Since we want to tread down this lonely road.

Look, I am/was upset. The biggest issue is that I have to pay to have it shipped back (he'll refund my money) and then I have to wait to get it back after it's redone.

Perhaps I was a little soon taking it here? Maybe. I'll admit that. But it's also cathartic to let it "air" out, so to speak. I don't doubt Gus' ability as a sword maker. I've said many times that the sword is amazing and well built. But to disagree with Nathan's statement.

Sword makers do not "allow" us to enjoy this hobby. There would not be sword makers if there were not a demand for said products. Supply and Demand. It's basic economics. No sword fanatics? No makers. But if there were no sword makers, there would be fanatics that Nathan said "go out and learn how to do it." that's essentially what's happened with Gus, and Albion, etc.

To make my post fairly simple...I do reserve the right as a buyer to be upset when a product that I purchased at great expense is not exactly how I wished it to be. Perhaps this is the norm in the custom/semi-custom orders for swords. If so, I'm sure others would be glad to have heard of my experience and perhaps it would give them some thought on how exactly this can go down.

For me, this has turned me off from purchasing another higher end sword for a long time. Perhaps for good.

[John Wehr]

[Jason Elrod]

[Greg Mele]

I have to concur with the others - when you are dealing with the arms and armour world you are dealing with what is essentially a cottage industry. I don't disagree that your request was a fairly simple exchange of furniture, but sometimes, as makers try to catch up with their backlogs, those simple changes cause the problems!

Back when Christian Fletcher was making armour, he built a custom Italo-Norman helmet for me, with some fairly specific specifications. It arrived on-time and beautiful - but without the safety specification I had specifically requested. Was I disappointed? Yes. But I shipped it back to Christian (on his dime) and he returned it to me quickly, with everything fixed perfectly.

I just recently received a new sword from Darkwood. I've known Scott for years and we specifically sat down and designed this sword. It was perfect - except for the part where the blade was two inches too long, because all of his recent orders for that style of blade had been for the 38" option. I called him up and he told me how to cut it down myself, or I could send it back (on his dime) and he'd fix it. I did it myself in five minutes.

Neither of these incidents is typical of these vendors, both of who have *stellar* reputations. But it happens. It even happens with production companies, like CAS Iberia. My own sig other is the owner of Revival Clothing. She is the designer but uses modern manufacturers to produce the clothing. Every now and then a gambeson comes back with a snag in the lining, or a chausse with a wrong-sized foot. She and her assistant do QC and inspect everything that comes through, but sometimes, much like spell check, things slip through the cracks. She does everything she can to fix the complaint immediately, but the problem has occurred.

I don't think anyone disagrees with your being disappointed. But, IMO, the title of this thread goes beyond that, as does your comments here:

[Nathan Robinson]

Cottage industry or not, the key word is that it's an industry. The minute money is involved, the person's craft has turned into business. It is not out of bounds to expect a business to be professional and act accordingly. If the business does not have the means to meet the expectations that they, themselves, set, it's time to either pack it up or change the way that business sets expectations. Let's face it: nobody is telling these businesses how to set expectations with their customers. They have every ability in the world to set them however they wish. And should they fail to meet them, they had better put a system in place to deal with it.

As with any thing in life, businesses make mistakes. What defines the worth of any business is the manner in which it responds to, and remedies, these mistakes.

In the many years I've been involved with the online communities surrounding arms and armour, there have been two things that have bugged the hell out of me: 1) Customers who go to Web forums and purposely try to use those sites to carry a personal crusade to do such things as bully a vendor, trash a vendor, or irrationally vent with rage and 2) Fans and other customers who come out of the woodwork to circle the wagons in defense of a vendor who has screwed up and end up justifying bad behavior, turning things around on the customer who was originally inconvenienced or messed over, and otherwise make up irrational excuses for that vendor.

Have either of these things happened in this particular topic? Well, maybe a little bit of each has happened. It certainly hasn't gone so far in either direction as to grab my attention and call this whole thing out of bounds. But I will say this, I don't want either of those things happening at all on this site: so knock it off.

Regarding the trashing of one's reputation: this is a good point, but let's all understand that a factual account of what happens in any transaction does not represent a crusade against a business. If a business ends up doing things that, if it were known to the public, would ruin their reputation, the problem is with the business and their own actions, not with the person reporting the problem. Sweeping problems under the rug is just as much a disservice to everyone as would be a smear campaign and raging insults against a business. Reputation needs to be based on actions, both the initial action and any response. I welcome the report of such things on this site in so long as they're done rationally, accurately, and with reason.

[Ralph Rudolph]

To give a positive example, how the tingling nerves of long-waiting sword collectors can be soothed and mistakes be avoided:

When I got my dagger made by Tod, and my "Ritter" by Christian Fletcher, both sent me a digital picture of the work in progress at half-way point, so I could see what was awaiting me and possibly interfere if it were completely wrong.
I think in the age of digicams and email, this is a quick and simple task, and it has just to be a snapshot, no piece of photographic art. When having a piece made to specifications and not from the shelf, I think it should be reasonable to expect this.

So, why not agree at your next sword order with your manufacturer that you want a picture and at what point in time of the production process you want to see it (a good point would be when the final payment is required, so you pay only after seeing the picture and giving your nod). Professionality is nor only required from the vendor, but also from the customer (I often read here as well of full initial payments and complaints about no delivery - no "professional" purchaser would do that).

Maybe an idea for this forum: why not establish a corner with a checklist for first-time buyers, "how-to" go into the process of ordering a sword and avoiding pitfalls and disappointment? I would volunteer for a start if I get a bit of help from the editors...

Ralph

[Norman McCormick]

I would like to invite any and all customers, buyers, makers, suppliers, retailers etc., who have never made a mistake in their lives to come forward and tell us your secret. I suspect you will probably have wings and a halo and even then are you sure you qualify absolutely. Continued and ongoing communication between agrieved parties is a must before you unsheath swords if not, well I'm sure we are all aware of the consequences. Buyers and sellers, both, have a duty and obligation to each other and an adult and mature approach is required by both parties if a positve and satisfactory outcome is to be gained during the course of a dispute regardless of the circumstances of said dispute.
Regards,
Norman.

[Roger Hooper]

Back in the days when Gus did more mix and matching on his hilts, I ordered an AT2104 (short leaf) with a different pommel and guard. I also had them plum browned. When the sword showed up it sported the standard guard. I told Gus about the mistake, and within a week, he sent me the guard I had ordered, with the plum brown finish on it. He said I could keep the first guard he had sent me.

I'm sure Gus will set things right for you in short order, and when he does, I hope you will report that to us here.

[George Hill]

As a starving student who finally has a tad bit of extra cash socked away, I'm once again thinking of the purchase of a sword. PErhaps that 1506 I've been promising to buy for the last two years or so, and have as yet been unable to.

I have no doubts about ordering from Angus whatsoever. He reputation is fantastic.

BTW, what's the current price on the 1506? Are orders being taken, or is the shakedown of reorganisation preventing that?

[David Martin]

I've dealt with a variety of craftspeople over the years. I don't think I've ever recieved better customer service than I did with Gus Trim and Christian Fletcher.

I purchased a Gus Trim sword from a retailer who went defunct. Gus didn't receive any money for this sword (I heard this through an informed third party). Despite this, Gus agreed to make the sword free of charge. The amazing part was that I wasn't the only one in this predicament. Gus was looking at doing several thousand dollars worth of work with no compensation. And he didn't flinch.

Although I very much appreciated the generosity of his offer, I spoke with my credit card company and was able to recover the money, so I paid Gus directly.

When I saw a photo of the completed sword, there was a problem. The pommel wasn't what I expected it to be. I reviewed my e-mails and found that the mistake had been my own. I had told Gus the wrong pommel type. Know what he did? He fixed it free of charge.

I would not hesitate to purchase another sword from Gus Trim. In fact, I'm looking forward to my next purchase, as I'm extremely satisfied with the sword he made for me.

We're all entitled to our opinions as well as how and when we choose to express them. In my opinion, if I were a custom sword maker, or the purveyor of any custom wares for that matter, I would be extremely unlikely to have any business dealings with someone who initiated a forum thread like this. The sword cuts both ways.

[John Wehr]

[Angus Trim]

Guys

John has a right to be upset, I screwed up on his sword..........Lets quit digging at him........

[Angus Trim]

[George Hill]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Getting mad at an honourable vendor who screwed up " badly " is not necessary since just bringing the problem to an " honourable " vendor will mean that he will bend over backwards to fix what is fixable.

Getting mad at a bad vendor who doesn't really care at all about customer service won't help much as they will forget about it as soon as you have finished talking and left the room! ( Literally or figuratively in an e-mail or phone call ).

By getting mad I mean " HOT SCREAMING ANGER " ! Polite but insistent pressure might work as well a possible legal action when/if applicable if all else fails.

Now if getting mad and venting is giving one some emotional satisfaction ....... It might be worth it in itself but it rarely gets positive results.

Many times I've gotten problems solved when dealing with less than motivated bureaucrats or sales people by being calm, insistent and explaining my problem clearly: For example it took about 6 months and repeated phone calls, e-mails and personal visits to get reimbursed for a Bank money order that was lost and uncashable due to an error. ( Oh, and the vendor I sent the money order to never sent me his copy back as promised ). Now, the Bank employee I was dealing with finally got my refund for me. But by being flawlessly polite to him I got him as frustrated with the problem as I was and MOTIVATED to help. If I had gotten mad at him I'm sure I would still be waiting for that refund.

Oh, in another case of true fraud/scamming I never even bothered trying to get my money back as it would have just been wasted effort.

The above is what works for me and not meant to pile on John. ( I hope ) And Angus said John had good reasons to be upset. The whole discussion I find a useful exchange of views on how to deal with customer service problems in general.

[Angus Trim]

[quote="George Hill"]