Swords carried by NWC & HBC Fur Traders -1800-1840 ? -- myArmoury.com

Jack W. Englund

One of the things that I am involved with is doing research into the Northwest Co's.(NWC) & Hudson Bay Co's(HBC) activities in the NW (USA) 1800-1840. There a a number of references to employees of both Co.s carring swords.Also references of them being used.

I do know that the Posts had cutlasses in their armoury, but these were for gen. defence & not the personal arms of the employees. The only ID of swords carried ( only a coiple of ref.s) were "hangers" Dose anyone have info. on possable other types ??

Jack

Eric Meulemans · Industry Professional

Have you looked at Carl P. Russell's Firearms, Traps, and Tools of the Mountain Men? I can't help but assume that you have, given it examines the precise era and area of your interest, but if you have not, I highly recommend this excellent resource.

http://www.amazon.com/Firearms-Traps-Tools-Mo...0826304656

My copy is presently buried away in a box somewhere, though if you'd like I can recover it and see if there is anything of use to you.

Gordon Frye · Posted: Mon 24 Sep, 2007 7:17 am Post subject:

There is an illustration in Russell's "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men" of the "Broadsword" carried by Sir George Simpson's Piper (been a while, so I'm not sure which page it's on, nor do I recall the name of the piper). Sir George was the Governor of the HBC in the 1830's and 40's, traveled widely across the continent with his retinue and was quite an driving force in moderninzing and improving the Hudson's Bay Company, and ruling it with an iron hand. The sword shown was hardly a claymore of the Victorian model, however, but looks to me to be a French Republican or Imperial Artillery short sword, often called a "gladius", with the eagle's head pommel. Rather fetching, and probably a great deal easier to manage while traversing the wilderness in a canoe than a basket-hilted broadsword would be.

Cheers!

Gordon

Lin Robinson · Posted: Mon 24 Sep, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject:

Daniel Statt · Posted: Tue 25 Sep, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject:

Jack,

I share your research interests, but with particular reference to the Pacific Fur Co. of John Jacob
Astor, which, as you know, sold out to the NWCo in 1813, after which Astoria became Fort George. There are numerous references to swords in the Astorian records, and they had enough of them to pass out to the engages when they were afraid of Indian trouble. Unfortunately nothing specific is ever said of them, although I suspect that they were some form of hanger. The gladius-style artilleryman's sword does show up associated with the HBCo, and some were made with the company's monogram cast into the brass handle, but I haven't seen it in connection with the NWCo. The "Voyageurs" Yahoo group had a discussion of this subject some months back, so you might have a look at their index.

Daniel

Jack W. Englund · Posted: Sat 29 Sep, 2007 8:32 am Post subject:

Gentlemen, Thank you for your replies. I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. Things have been hectic around here. I do have Russell's book, but I missed Fraser's Broadsword. Thanks.

BTW - for those interested in the Fur Trade I would like to invite you to check out this forum. http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.com/forum/ I am a moderator on it. ( AKA - PUFFER ) Let me know what you think. JEng958607@aol.com

Jack

Jack W. Englund · Posted: Sat 29 Sep, 2007 8:43 am Post subject:

Jack W. Englund · Posted: Sat 29 Sep, 2007 9:09 am Post subject:

Jack W. Englund · Posted: Sat 29 Sep, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject:

Here is another interesting reference to swords being carried & used by NWC
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/fra...chere.html
http://link.library.utoronto.ca/champlain/ite...;Limit=All

In these 2 "journals, Gabriel Franchere ( a Pacific Fur Co. clerk, who joined the NWC when it was sold. ) recounts guarding an indian prisoner. In one account the prisoner is guarded by 2 sentinels with drawn swords.. In the other the prisoner is guarded by a guard with a "naked sword"

Jack

David McElrea · Posted: Sat 29 Sep, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject:

"...12 "Dragon" swords ( any ideas what these might be ???"

My guess would be that it is meant to say, "dragoon swords" as per the example shown in one of the url's you linked.

David

Gordon Frye · Posted: Sun 30 Sep, 2007 9:00 am Post subject:

Very slightly off topic, but definitely related, I would offer this just to add to the weirdness of the cutlery carried by HBC employees. When Jedediah Smith traveled through the Oregon Territory in the 1820's, he accumulated a number of HBC "deserters", most of whom were Iroquois. In one incident, a grizzly bear rampaged through their camp, and one of the Iroquois stabbed it with the bayonet which was fixed to his musket. I would presume that it was a British Army surplus Brown Bess, probably of the India Pattern sold off my the bushel-basket load after the end of the Napoleonic Wars, but it could have been almost anything. A rather unusual weapons for a trapper (especially a Native American trapper) to be carrying to our minds perhaps, but obviously it came in handy.

Swords and bayonets aren't the first thing to come to mind when thinking of Frontier weaponry, but in the borderlands of New Spain and British North America, somewhat different attitudes and conditions prevailed, so there were definitely lots more strange and wonderful weapons floating around than we generally would consider being "normal". The Journal of the Fur Trade, published by the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron NE, had a series of articles some years ago on the use of swords on the frontier, and it was quite enlightening. A LOT more swords were in evidence than one would expect, considering our standard concept of the Frontiersman with Long Rifle, Tomahawk and Bowie Knife being rather universal.

For some good referrences to the more outlandish firearms of the Frontier, check out Firearms of the American West by Worman and Garavaglia ( http://www.amazon.com/Firearms-American-1866-...0870814664 ) and excellent resource for such things.

Cheers!

Gordon

Jack W. Englund · Posted: Sun 30 Sep, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject:

Jack W. Englund · Posted: Sun 30 Sep, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject:

Gordon, Yep, that Iroquois sure could have gotten that "pig Sticker" & gun off your wagon. But as you pointed out it could have come from a lot of places. @ different times they were supplied with military arms by the French, Brits etc. It could have also come from one of the fur co.s. The Iroquois were used as trappers, here in the NW, from early on. We also know that The NWC raised Militia units during the war of 1812. ( not only the Voyageur corps But local units, like the one David Thompson joined) & they were ared with "Bess's"

Jack