[Charlee Garvin]

I have some thoughts about Kriegsmessers that I would like to share with you all. I’ve been pondering why there are not as many surviving Kriegsmessers in museums and private collections as there are double-edged long swords.

One of my theories is that they were more expensive for the swordsman to buy because they required more time for the swordsmith to forge. Thus, there are less of them around. Using a modern armorer as an example, Albion's Knecht is one of the most expensive swords in the Next Generation sword-line. Mike tells me at Albion that the Knecht has been a real challenge and requires a lot of assembly time. Particularly, the hilt assembly has been a problem and is being changed slightly. I e-mailed Peter Johnsson about this and he replied on September 20th:

“…adjustment of design is done to make assembly less time consuming, but will actually also add authentic detail. With the current design, assembly of the hilt of each sword (Knecht) demands no less than three days of hand work.”

I just wonder if there is a historical connection in regards to Kriegsmessers lack of popularity in latter days, compared to other longswords in Fechtbuchs, and why this disparity continues even today. Yes, we see them in use is woodcuts, but not that many compared to all the double-edged sword models out there.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Charlee

[Andreas Auer]

my theory is, that messer (knifes) were allowed to almost everyone. when they were broken, or useless, or simply not needed anymore, they were made to something else like smaller knifes or some other tools... for poor people steel was expensive...

[Nathan Robinson]

I'm not certain that I'd agree that messers were more difficult to forge/create than other swords. I think it's safe to say that it's been a challenge for Albion to create their versions within the constraints of their production environment. The challenge for Albion is not putting one together, as they seem quite able to do so, but to put one together in a manner that retains profitability and fits within the limits of their methods of production. As with any production environment, Albion will need to do some testing until they develop a system that works for this sword model. They've done this with other sword models and subsequent models that utilize the same methods benefit from what they've learned. It's just a necessary process.

We also have to acknowledge the value of material cost vs. labor (ie, time) and how it's quite different than it was in times past. While three days of assembly on a product in today's market is quite costly, the cost may not have been as prohibitive in medieval times.

The challenges of sword production are quite different now than they were then: on many levels.

[Charlee Garvin]

Nathan,

I agree with all of your points. But why the rarity in museums and private collections compared to other sword models?

Some insist that it was a poor man's sword--is this valid? I can see that for messers but not for its bigger brother.
My only link is to trace the kriegsmessers genealogy by starting at the present and working back-----so seeing the cost and difficulty at Albion, cued a possible explanation for the past since Albion uses many of the traditional sword making methods. I feel that to completely discount this would be narrow minded.

Also, what's interesting, is somewhere along the sword timeline for the East and West, there was a divergence in sword form choices. The Japanese and Chinese in medieval times had double-edged weapons, but eventual fixated on the single edged sword, even choosing to develop their feudal culture around it. Whereas the opposite was true in the west, where prominence showed towards the double edged weapon. Now you have something like the kriegsmesser that turned into almost a niche sword between the two, joining a crucifix hilt with a curved Scythian blade like sabers. Maybe that explains some of its rarity.


Nathan, I know you like these swords, what do you think? Or anybody for that matter.

Charlee

[Nathan Robinson]