[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hello all,

Ewart Oakeshott maintained in one of his books (and I must check *which* one) that the idea of knights being hoisted into the saddle derives from a farcical Victorian era play "When Knights Were Bold".

I doubt there's any appearance of this idea prior to that play. If one needs a little help getting into the saddle, one uses a mounting block, not an elaborate mechanism that lifts him needlessly into the air. And, as Jeffrey Hedgecock says, very few of these proud men would've resorted even to that measure.

Oh, and all studies now point to the average height in late Medieval Europe being just slightly less than it is today. I'm frequently struck by how many surviving armours look like they'd *almost* fit me and I'm 5'11" and 180 lbs.

All the best,

Christian

[Jean-Carle Hudon]

Randall, thank you for that clarification and now, with regards to the hoisting question, I took the time to look through my old Viollet-Le-Duc medieval encyclopedia, a XIXth century work by one of the greatest medieval revivalists of all time, an architect responsible for major works such as the refection of the great walled city of Carcassonne and other major works of that century ( I just mention this for readers who might not know of him). Well, as an architect, V-L-D has a major part of his encyclopedia dealing with ''engin'', in other words all forms of apparatus, whether for building, or transporting medieval canon, and of course weapons of siege warfare. He illustrates lots of his opinions with drawings, some quite remarkable. There is also a major chapter on armor,its evolution, and how this influenced changes in cavalry tactics and so on... My point is this : he has absolutely no mention nor reference of any hoisting mechanism though he deals at length with how armors got heavier in tournament use. A builder such as he, a lover of all things medieval, and a great student of all the intricacies of medieval engineering would have had a hard time missing a hoisting mechanism had it been around. He would in all probability have mentionned it as one of the specialized 'engins' particular to the medieval period and cross-referenced it while dealing with the changes in armored cavalry combat and tournament use. He would also have had an excuse for adding yet another illustration in his already well illustrated work. Now I realize that absence of evidence is not direct evidence, but absence of any mention by an expert in the field who has an obvious love for everything mechanical is surely an indication that this apparatus, if it ever existed, would be an extremely rare creature.

[Randall Pleasant]

[Dan Dickinson]

[Nathan Robinson]

Speculation on the average height of man throughout the ages will likely serve no purpose and it yields very few answers. Instead, we need look at any studies performed and, instead, recite that data. This is an issue that has many theories. It's time to move past the theories.

The topic of height is best pursued in another topic, such as the one I linked to above. Please post that train of thought in its own topic.

[Peter Morwood]

Christian -

The Oakeshott reference is in European Weapons and Armour, p.107 of my Boydell edition (or the pre-bibliography last page of Chapter 4, Armour: 1400-1525 if your pagination differs from mine.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

In Innsbruck there is a famous street that was occasionally used for tournaments held before the court of Maximilian I, and many of the buildings date to that time. On the corner of one, there were tournament scenes rendered in relief. One showed jousters in 'frog-mouthed' helms mounting their horses; their attendants were holding a lance at either end, providing a step and a boost to help their masters into the saddle. 'Frog-mouths' often weighed twenty-five pounds or so, with very limited vision, and the total armour worn in a heavy joust typically weighed in excess of ninety. The left arm typically had restricted movement. It was probably the clumsiest armour worn in a typical tournament, the closest thing to the classic armour myth, and would never have been worn in the field. I thought I had taken a picture of one of the scenes, but I can't seem to find it... Anybody else have one?

[Gregg Sobocinski]

I can't help but wonder: Is it possible that in rare circumstances, hoists could have been improvised to assist wounded knights into the saddle? That would explain their lack of publicity, since they likely existed in desperate (i.e.-losing) situations, while most strong bodies would have been out in the field. Since modern athletes (who are not fighting for their lives) often insist on participating after extreme injuries, I wonder if stories of these hoists are exaggerations of real, similar occurrences.

I know I'm speculating here, but what do we know about how the wounded coped in battle? Any good literary sources to recommend in this area for my own interest?

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hello Peter!

Thanks for the reference...that was really bugging me!

All the best,

Christian

[Nathan Robinson]

I've removed the posts that discuss the height of people and refer you to my two posts above that ask that you guys keep this topic on-target and put the disucssion about height into its own topic. Here is one of my moderator posts:

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

It -could- be an interesting discussion -if- there was -any- convincing evidence at all for the practice.

I have not yet seen any primary or secondary source evidence for hoisting anybody in armour onto a horse, and much evidence pointing to the idea that it would be unnecessary, impractical, degrading and silly, given the mindset of the man at arms or jouster in the era of full plate (14th - 17th centuries).

I won't say a discussion of this -wouldn't- be interesting, but there needs to be something to go on, and so far I haven't seen any -evidence- worth considering. In the absence of it, how is a discussion of this productive?

I would say, for my part, the most interesting thing to come from this is possibly locating the origin of the myth back in that Victorian farce.

So, where do we go from here, if anywhere?

[Robin Smith]

I was under the impression Henry VIII used a hoist in his corpulent years for parades, but have never seen any first hand accounts, and have only heard it mentioned in the usual circles. If there is any truth to that, and I am most certainly NOT asserting there is, then perhaps that would be the origin of such stories...

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Todd Eriksen]

Jean,
Makes one wonder though that if someone is too feeble to get onto the horse they would be in shape to fight a joust, even a friendly one, and they would certainly not enjoy falling off the horse ? Now for a state parade on horseback, maybe ?

Knowing Henry VIII's love for the tourney, I can easily see, whether he is in shape or not, his desire to still mount up for a joust and relying on his ability and fact that he was 'king' to not worry about being unhorsed. Like Jeffrey stated, do you think that someone as proud as Henry VIII would allow for himself to be hoisted into a saddle, whether it be for tourney or a state parade. Just a thought.

What was the movie with Danny Kaye in, "The Jester"? Was that the first movie using hoists?

[Ed Toton]

[Peter Lyon]

Whether or not he had to be hoisted or assisted into the saddle, Henry VIII should be seen as a special case. In 1536 he suffered a leg injury while jousting, which never healed and would have effected his movement for the rest of his life.

[Peter Fuller]

Why are you guys still discussing this? It's so stupid, it's not worth the effort! I agree 100% with Jeff Hedgecock - there is absolutely no evidence that this was ever practiced! When anyone on this thread mentions the so-called 'possibility,' their comments are filled with such words as 'possibly', 'perhaps', or 'maybe.' No one, not even Bear, has offered even the remotest piece of solid evidence, because it doesn't exist! The 19 th century origin of the myth was presented by Peter Morwood, and yet you guys still discuss the 'possibility'! Can we please, finally, put this ridiculous myth to rest?

Chad and Nathan, please forgive me if my comments are a little too forceful, but I'm just sick and tired of this silly myth rearing it's ugly head again and again and again...

Peter Fuller

[Chad Arnow]

[Peter Fuller]

Sorry Chad, but I cannot agree with you. Discussion for the sake of discussion is erroneous.

Say I started a myth that extraterrestrials came to earth and taught medieval armourers how to smelt and temper steel. A lot of people believe in extraterrestrials. But does that mean it is worthy of discussion? No. There's no evidence to support it, and it's just plain silly. But no more silly than the hoist myth.

As I said, nobody on this thread has provided a single scrap of evidence to support the hoist myth. It's all been conjecture and speculation; what ifs, and perhaps's. How about if I provide some evidence against it? Let's start with the quote from Shakespeare I gave earlier in this thread. He lived in the age of armour, and anybody who has read him knows that he wrote about what he saw. How about Oliver de la Marche who said that Galliot de Balthasin in 1446 leaped fully armed out of the saddle 'as though he had on a pourpoint only.' Or W. Stokes, in his book "The Vaulting Master" (1641): "In war the nimble avoydance of a man's horse if wounded or killed under him, and in like manner the ready ascent into his enemies saddle if it be his hap to unhorse him..." Need I remind you that this was written when combat armour was at its heaviest. We can also look at the weight of armour; the Churburg #18 is 56 pounds - the famous Pancraz armour in the Wallace Collection is 59 pounds. I could go on, but the weights of armour are well known, and it is not nearly so heavy that it is cumbersome in any way. Also, Jeff Hedgecock wears well made, historically accurate armour when he jousts, as does the likes of Toby Capwell, and many others. You can ask them if they have to be hoisted onto their horses with cranes yourself.

In one paragraph I've given more evidence to refute this myth than anyone has provided in faovour of it in this entire thread. But hey, I'm nobody; what do I know? Don't take my word for it. Instead, let's hear what one of the greatest arms and armour scholars of our age, R. Ewart Oakeshott, has to say about this ridiculous myth;

"It is sad that the English-speaking world still has to be dogged by this idiotic brain-child of the long forgotten producer of a Victorian farce, and that writers, directors and producers, illustrators and teachers, still perpetuate it as truth, instead of condemning it for the futile nonsence that it manifestly is."

He said it much better than I ever could.

[Jean Thibodeau]

So far I think we have mostly speculated about when,where and how this " theory " got it's start and why it seems very improbable to almost certainly untrue: We can't prove 100% that in the history of the world one case like this couldn't be found but we can be very certain that it wasn't " customery "

Personnally I think it's just a bad Victorian period idea like horns on Viking helmets are a bad and standard " Opera " costume design idea of what Vikings looked like.