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Sam N.
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 Posted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: How to wear a dagger with a rapier. |
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Does anyone know how a dagger intended for use as an offhand weapon would be worn on the person? Was it similar to how medieval daggers were worn? (e.g. at the back for use in an icepick fashion) In fact, does anyone know of any internet resources detailing the methods of wearing different sorts of weaponry?
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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When wearing a rapier the main gauche was worn at the back with the handle to the left, so the dagger could be drawn with the left hand while the right drew the rapier. As the maingauche was often drawn at the same time as the rapier it was important for it to be easily done with one hand, so the old medieval way of hanging a dagger by a thong (which was the standard method, though not only) was superceded.
A maingauche was often held by a loop fitted to the back of the scabbard mouth fitting that the belt threaded through.
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Eric Myers
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Leo, I would say the opposite. Much period artwork shows the dagger worn on the opposite hip as the sword, so the left hand would reach across the front of the body to draw it. I'm not saying *all* period artwork shows this, because I really don't know. Often there is no sign of the dagger, or it is hidden by a cape. I am not aware of what the period rationale would be for this, but it can allow for a icepick style draw with your primary hand, which could be useful, especially if you have removed your sword and scabbard from the hanger for any number of reasons.
Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
ViaHup.com - Wiki di Scherma Italiana
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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What Eric said. If you go to any Renaissance art gallery, you will see quite a number of portraits that show the dagger hilt sticking out of the right side, behind the hip. As Eric pointed out, this would likely explain why the reverse grip was so commonly used when fighting with the dagger alone (though there are quite a number of forward grip actions as well, of course).
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | What Eric said. If you go to any Renaissance art gallery, you will see quite a number of portraits that show the dagger hilt sticking out of the right side, behind the hip. As Eric pointed out, this would likely explain why the reverse grip was so commonly used when fighting with the dagger alone (though there are quite a number of forward grip actions as well, of course). |
From that position it's easy to draw the dagger in reverse grip but almost as easy to turn the hand ( pronate ) the hand and pull out a 12" long bladed dagger: It may seem awkward to some but I find it easy to do either way.
The hand reaches back with the knuckles touching the back and grabs the dagger handle, extend outward to the side with the blade pointing down to clear the body safely and rotate forward into a normal grip in front of the body in one fluid motion.
The only problem I can see is this might take more elbow room to do: If there is less elbow room the alternate reverse grip can be done with the elbow just going back but less out to the side. ( Reverse grip might be a fraction faster and safer to do ).
Bill: Anyway, works for me ! Curious about what you think ? 
( EDITED: Oh, with a short blade this is easier to do. A 12" blade or less, a 17" to 18" blade is sort of more difficult and anything longer can become difficult. I think this technique still works with a coustille sized dagger ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sam N.
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| Posted: Sat 01 Sep, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies. Your info is much appreciated  .
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Eric Myers
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Sat 01 Sep, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
From that position it's easy to draw the dagger in reverse grip but almost as easy to turn the hand ( pronate ) the hand and pull out a 12" long bladed dagger: It may seem awkward to some but I find it easy to do either way.
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That's true Jean, and I've done it a lot at Renn Faires where a dagger often does double duty as a utility knife, but I believe the icepick grip is predominant for dagger only play in the manuals from the "rapier and dagger period".
As for the why the icepick grip was so predominant, Dr. Bill Ernoehazy presents a pretty interesting and very plausible reason in his article in the first WMA Illustrated, essentially tying open hand and dagger strikes to the primary close quarters use of the sword: the pommel strike.
Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
ViaHup.com - Wiki di Scherma Italiana
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sat 01 Sep, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: |
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in the situations where you need to pull your dagger quickly, the opponent is often very close to you, meaning that a cross body draw might not be possible.
If you have the time to cross draw, you will probably go for the rapier anyway, and pull the dagger afterwards.
What I find myself doing most of the time with my sword/dagger is pulling the dagger first to ward of the initial close assault, then shifting it to the left hand and drawing the sword.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jim Mearkle
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Tue 04 Sep, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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The pikemen and halberdiers also have swords. I suspect the daggers were drawn with the left hand reaching across the body.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 04 Sep, 2007 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim Mearkle wrote: | Now, for a halberdier, it makes sense to me to set up your backup weapon for a right hand draw, but the pikemen also wear swords on their left hips. I don't understand why they would have both the sword and dagger set up for a right hand draw, unless it's an error on the part of the artist. 
The whole series of woodcuts can be seen here: http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Galler...eland.html |
Mostly I think it's because you are going to need one or the other real quick and if you go for the sword or the dagger will depend on how much time you have and how scary close you are.
In civilian use it might seem better to be able to pull out your sword and dagger at the same time but in the press of battle getting the close range weapon out FAST would be a priority and if you have enough distance to pull out the sword you also have the time to transfer the dagger to your left hand before getting the sword.
Also, if you absolutely need to get both out at the same time reaching back with the left hand for the dagger in ice pick grip or forward grip is doable. Anyway, this would seem to give you the most options.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Well, I know Sir John Smythe wanted pikemen to draw both their swords and daggers quickly and use them together.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Benjamin H. Abbott wrote: | | Well, I know Sir John Smythe wanted pikemen to draw both their swords and daggers quickly and use them together. |
Quickly may not mean simultaneously though ? A quick one/two maybe ?
Now if the sword on the left side was drawn by the right hand and the dagger was drawn by the left hand on the right hip simultaneously, the forearms would tend to get in each other's way or at the very least the forearms would be crossing with each holding a sharp blade. 
I could be very wrong but as in my previous post I think I could draw the sword with my right hand and the dagger at the same time or very close to the same time without any interference of one hand with the other if both where on the left hip.
Oh, I have no " dog in this fight " one might say and no great attachment/investment to any specific way this was done: I'm just thinking this through as I write and I'm open to any logical alternate theories or better ways to draw the sword and dagger. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Martin Wilkinson
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: |
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If the dagger is on the right hip it is possible to draw both sword and dagger simultaneously.
The left arm stays underneath the right. You draw most of the sword before starting to draw the dagger, and they should land in a guard position at the same time(ish).
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."
Schola Gladiatoria
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
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About the pikemen, Smythe wrote, "...and prefently in the twinkling of an eie or inftant, muft draw their fhort arming fwords and daggers..."
Of course, I believe he also complained about the current methods of wearing daggers, as well as the size of daggers.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Martin Wilkinson wrote: | If the dagger is on the right hip it is possible to draw both sword and dagger simultaneously.
The left arm stays underneath the right. You draw most of the sword before starting to draw the dagger, and they should land in a guard position at the same time(ish). |
Right and that makes sense as long as it's a one/two thing with at least a barely discernable pause. ( Practice make perfect also ? ).
As with many things there may be more than one way of doing things that work and there may be " customary " ways of doing things that might exclude some techniques ? ( Traditions, customs, varying by time and place ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Martin Wilkinson
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Martin Wilkinson wrote: | If the dagger is on the right hip it is possible to draw both sword and dagger simultaneously.
The left arm stays underneath the right. You draw most of the sword before starting to draw the dagger, and they should land in a guard position at the same time(ish). |
Right and that makes sense as long as it's a one/two thing with at least a barely discernable pause. ( Practice make perfect also ? ).
As with many things there may be more than one way of doing things that work and there may be " customary " ways of doing things that might exclude some techniques ? ( Traditions, customs, varying by time and place ). |
I haven't tried it in a while, discovered the fun of having the left hand free when closing...
But, an important thing for me is that the dagger has to be easily accessible for the right hand, for situations where there is no time to draw the sword, a bar brawl, ambush in a dark alley, etc. or for everyday activities, slicing an apple, cutting rope, etc.
Will have a play with it again tomorrow, just to confirm what i remember.
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."
Schola Gladiatoria
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