[Michael Edelson]

Hi all,

In a few weeks I am going to post results from a series of tests of various weapons vs. some very fine historically correct mail by Julio Junco and a 10, 20 and 30 layer linen Jack from Matuls.

I just wanted to post some preliminary results from the jack tests, specifically thrust tests vs 10, 20 and 30 layers. I'm working with 2 pieces of a Jack, a 10 layer piece and 20 layer piece (30 layer tests were of course of the two combined pieces).

So far, here are the results....even a 10 layer jack will mostly stop a flexible sword, such as a civilian dueling longsword like the Brescia Spadona (though the Brescia can sometimes power through the 10 layer jack). What stops it is blade flex.

However, not even a 30 layer jack can stop a stiff war sword such as Albion's Talhoffer or old Regent. However, the new Regent or the Earl, with their thicker reinforced points, have lost their effectiveness against a jack.

The full report will have photos, a lot more weapons and scenarios and of course attempts to cut the jack (which will, I believe, prove futile). I just thought I'd release some info ahead of time, as I'm very excited to confrim my suspicions that an acutely pointed war sword would have made short work of jacks.

[Gordon Clark]

Interesting information. Look forward to seeing your full report.

I think this underlines a point many have made previously - there is no such thing as "the perfect sword". A point narrow enough to pierce a Jack might break when used against other armor - etc.

Clearly from historical examples there were many different approaches to the task of delivering effective weapons.

Gordon

[Felix R.]

Give me more! I am looking forward to your full report.

[Chuck Russell]

make sure you have the quilting in effect. i believe just pieces of a jack will yield different results than having a full jack. being that a full jack the material may pull or pull in teh direction and not allow a blade to pass etc. i dunno heheh maybe it will. love to see the tests though.

now remember the writeings about jacks. most jackes under 25 layers had mail under them. and those from 25-30 had a stag skin. that could change yoru test results too.

[Michael Edelson]

[George Hill]

[Michael Edelson]

[Michael Olsen]

In my research for gambeson patterns, I seem to recall some padded armour designs having holes at the inner elbows. I presumed that these were use to allow increased motion when using thick padding. I'm not sure about the prevalence, effectiveness, or even the historical nature of this construction, however.

This is an example of the design: http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/padded_jack.html
As you can see, the sleeves have a rather large opening at the elbow.

[Michael Edelson]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Michael Edelson]

Hi Jean,

I can guess how the cutting tests will go, because I previously performed them with denim...blue jeans, to be exact. I folded them to form 16 or 32 layers and tried to cut them or thrust through them. I could not cut even 16 layers with anything, not even a razor sharp katana (nihonto, not a production imitation), though that sword was the only one to cut through half of the layers.

The tests were criticized because it was stated that linen is tougher than denim, which is what prompted me to ask Matuls for the sample. However, judging by the thrusting results, linen is NOT tougher than denim, in fact the opposite is true. However, I still anticipate that I will be unable to cut through the jack at all. I'm certain that the only difference will be how many layers a particular sword will cut through before being stopped.

But only the actual test will tell...

[Daniel Staberg]

A lot would depend ont he acutal quality of the linen used, as a cloth linens come in very varying thickness, open or tight weaves, soft or stiff and so on. A quick look at my main supplier of living history quality linens reveal a cloth that weigns any thing from 0,18 kilos/meter to 0,6kilos/meter
A very stiff linen in an open weave would have rather diffrent defensive capabilites than an soft linen in a tight weave. Furthermore many Jacks were made of fustian, a linen/cotton blend, not linen.

Softness seems to be a key factor when making a jack, The ordinnace of Loius XI clearly states that "the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible is best for this purpose" and goes on to lay to the guidelines for a jack that has 25 or 30 layers of cloth in the arms. The 1483 description of jacks from Enlgnad states "The softer the tunics the better do they withstand the blows of arrows and swords"

[Randall Moffett]

The burgundy ordinance is 10 layers with mail and 25 with the last layer of buckskin and 30 alone.

You have to be careful with how the ordinances describe the defensive capabilities. These men are trying to maximize the amount of armour worn for the least amount of cash hoping more will be armed with the option B being no armour on their men which is clearly worse. They usually also say things like 'hardly a man has been killed by a sword in such a jack as 30 layer'...... Then you have the crushing blows of pole weapons as well.

The ordinances in england seem to increase its use for sure but there is always that question if if some, most or all actually did it as in musters you find huge numbers without harness, which means with no armour at all...

I still have a hard time thinking most were over 20 or even 15 really for the average man. The expense would have to be great even for used linen which often is advocated as Daniel pointed out. The problem is most Jack sold used would be more than even used waste linen would allow in 15 plus layers. Something to also be considered is the howard inventory. The only jacks of such huge layers are for the lord and his sons, commoners get a much reduced version. I doubt such a military involved lord like Howard would be thta out of sync for his men.

Poor jack... everyone is always picking on him.

Look forward to the results.

A person I know made a similar test but when he made the jack alternated the weave of the layers and he said this increased the strength. Not sure with such an acute point how big a difference it would make.

RPM

[Jean Henri Chandler]

Fascinating thread.

Regarding the expense, how expensive would a jack of this type be compared to say, a sword, a munitions grade cuirass, mail corslet, a helmet, a wisby coat, or a bringatine jack?

I realize prices would vary considerably country to country and year to year of course... but some kind of frame of reference on the cost of this surprisingly effective armor would be helpful in understanding the context.

I know ther was a recent article here comparing the various forms of cloth armor and padded garments worn over and under mail armor... but I'm still very confused by the differences between a jack, jupon, aketon, gambeson, points etc. etc.


Seems like, if I'm undertanding correctly, a jack of this type would constitute almost as effective armor as a mail byrnie or a brigantine, but perhaps be more ablative or easier to destroy from attrition. Does that sound reasonable? It seems like it's probably considerably more effective than any kind of leather armor including cuir boulli.


I think it's very likely the holes inside the elbows and the often seen holes in the armpit would be there to enhance flexibility, I wonder if also in some cases simply much fewer layers might be put in these places even when there aren't holes.


I remember being amazed in reading Bernal Diaz that most of the original Conquistadors of Cortez had only cloth armor of some kind, yet they seemed to endure nearly an endless shower of javelins and missiles of all types as well as numerous blows from effective if non metal weapons with surprisingly few casualties.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Kel Rekuta]

[Michael Olsen]

If you were going to make armor like that, how do you sew the layers together and what is the best way to cut it? Do you use like a carpet needle? Is there any way to sew something like that with a machine?[/quote]

Honestly, I have no idea how one would go about actually stitching the fabric - I would think that some heavy duty sewing machines may do the trick when fitted with a proper needle, but I really don't know enough about it right now to be able to say something with any degree of certainty.

[Eric Myers]

[Michael Edelson]

I just finished the tests and am going to try to compile them as soon as possible.

Want a teaser?

A Brescia Spadona cat a 3" gash in a 20 layer Jack.

A katana (nihonto- signed: Chounsai Emura Saku) can devastate....absolutely devastate...a 30 layer jack. As in cut to ribbons.

I was shocked!

[Steven H]