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Craig Peters
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 Posted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | | Craig Peters wrote: | | [Is this from Döbringer? Or someone else? |
It's from Ringeck.
| Quote: | | I interpret the inclusion of methods like Absetzen as ways to deal with attacks, particularly if for whatever reason you don't get the first strike. I also see it as something included for the sake of completeness, in order to provide one with all the options possible in a fight. But to state that one has to wait and fight in Nach in order to be safe seems rather strange when one of the fencing books that is probably contemporary with Liechtenauer is very insistent upon the importance of attacking first. I think we need to look for a method that allows us also the option of a Vorschlag that can be made with confidence before writing off the scenario I described as only being possible when fighting from Nach. |
No one says you have to wait in the Nach to be safe, that's not the point at all. And Liechtenauer *does* prefer the Attack. But it's not an "either/or" situation; you can prefer the attack but recognize there are lots of times when it is preferable to await an attack, too.
But the technique I recommended was the Krumphau. If you say that the Krumphau isn't a Liechtenauer technique then I would say you're mistaken--it's one of the Meisterhau! And yet the Krumphau isn't a Vorschlag, so your entire premise--that only Vorschlag are "true" Liechtenauer--is incorrect. And, by the way, Doebringer wrote about the Krumphau, too, so you can't claim these kinds of techniques are "add ons". The true *simple* solution to the apparent contradiction is to understand that no source really means you always attack first. |
I have never claimed that the Krumphaw is not a Liechtenauer technique. What text of mine are you referring to? For that matter, the Krumphaw can be a Vorschlag against someone in the guard of Ochs. I've seen it performed in person, and it works very effectively.
| Quote: | | The Vier Versetzen are to be used agaisnt someone who has just moved into guard. If he's attacking, and any movement toward me must be construed as an attack, then I'm perfectly within the Liechtenauer system to use a Meisterhau! Your mixing apples and oranges here, Craig, by asking why one of the vier Versetzen shouldn't be used against an attack when they weren't intended for that. |
I'm not arguing that the Meisterhaw can't be used to regain the initiative; that's precisely why they're master cuts. But they can also be used as a form of Vorschlag, (particularly the Krump, Zwerch, Schiller, and theoretically, the Scheitel), to pre-empt people before they have a chance to attack. But that's not really the same thing as just waiting in Nach until your opponent attacks before you do something. Yes, it's possible to do this, but it's more difficult- the advantage to using mastercuts as a Vorschlag is that they can also close a line of attack off- or at least, some of them can. I'm not sure about the Scheitelhaw, and as far as I know, the Zornhaw breaks another Zornhaw, rather than a guard.
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Robert Koulakjian
Location: Germantown, MD, USA Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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All this talk about handwork and strikes and not a single mention of footwork!
Stepping off-line with a Scheitelhau against an opponent in Alber will make it that much more effective, in my experience.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert Koulakjian wrote: | All this talk about handwork and strikes and not a single mention of footwork!
Stepping off-line with a Scheitelhau against an opponent in Alber will make it that much more effective, in my experience. |
Yes, this is indeed true, and I believe such footwork is fundamental to the success of a Scheitelhaw. But I've still found that quick snipes from Alber can be quite effective if one isn't careful.
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | I have never claimed that the Krumphaw is not a Liechtenauer technique. What text of mine are you referring to? For that matter, the Krumphaw can be a Vorschlag against someone in the guard of Ochs. I've seen it performed in person, and it works very effectively. |
Why, the one where you said that the Liechtenauer style requires you to attack first, of course.
And yes, the Krumphau can be used as a Vorschlag against someone in Ochs, that's why it's one of the Vier Versetzen, Craig! But if someone was moving to me to attack I wouldn't use a Versetzen since I'm not attacking a static guard but rather an attack!!
| Quote: | | I'm not arguing that the Meisterhaw can't be used to regain the initiative; that's precisely why they're master cuts. But they can also be used as a form of Vorschlag, (particularly the Krump, Zwerch, Schiller, and theoretically, the Scheitel), to pre-empt people before they have a chance to attack. But that's not really the same thing as just waiting in Nach until your opponent attacks before you do something. Yes, it's possible to do this, but it's more difficult- the advantage to using mastercuts as a Vorschlag is that they can also close a line of attack off- or at least, some of them can. I'm not sure about the Scheitelhaw, and as far as I know, the Zornhaw breaks another Zornhaw, rather than a guard. |
Craig, let's make this simpler, OK?
1.) I gave a simple, clear explanation for the Vier Versetzen. I said they're used just as (Indes) your opponent assumes a guard. This works and it cancels out attacks from Alber very nicely.
2.) You asked what to do if the person in Alber moves toward you, and I replied I'd use a Meisterhau, not a Versetzen, since the Versetzen aren't used against an attacking opponent, but rather one in guard.
3.) You then said I can't do that because in Liechtenauer's system you *never* (not ever under any circumstances) await your opponent's attack, so that (my response in point 2) must be wrong.
4.) I replied that you do sometimes await your opponent's attack rather than attacking first, and quoted you a precise reference for doing so in exactly the same situation you thought up in point 2 above. The technique I quoted was an Absetzen where Liechtenauer *tells* you to move into a guard (Pflug) and await your opponent's attack.
5.) Therefore, it *naturally* follows that your contention that you must use a Vorschlag (e.g., one of the vier Versetzen) rather than awaiting your opponent's attack and countering it with a Krumphau is *by definition* flawed.
There's no way to argue around that, Craig. You can't change that, you can't come at it from a different angle, you can't change the terms to "prove" a point.
And sure the Meisterhaue can be used as Vorschlag, but since we're not talking about that here that's not germane to this discussion, see? That means your comment about it was irrelevant, not to say obfuscatory--I would certainly hope not, at least.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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