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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Greg Coffman
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 Posted: Sun 26 Aug, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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I understood that we were discouraged to strike at the legs because they were farther away than the upper body. Shortest distance between two points, etc....and that line starts at our shoulders. So striking at or around the other persons shoulders would be striking to the nearest target. The head and shoulders are closest and the legs are further out. If I strike to somebody's legs, they can void just enough so that I miss but still be in range to strike me. And then my sword is down low and I'm not in a position to protect myself.
The reason why the strike to the legs from zufechten works is that so many of us have underdeveloped senses of timing and distance and we rely too much on static blocks. So a fencer can be decieved by someone starting a strike that looks like a zornhau at first but goes low and strikes to the left leg. The strike works not because of it's own merit but because of the inexperience of the fighters. Of course all this is for the longsword only and as appropriate to the question.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Craig,
Voiding with the leg is trivially easy to do. This is why the attacks to the leg are advised only once you have closed from the Zufechten. From the Krieg, you can switch from high to low targets without the geometric advantage of distant high attacks becoming debilitating.
All the best,
Christian |
I don't disagree that it's not hard to void such an attack. However, voiding alone does not necessarily put one in an advantageous position to counterattack. And in freeplay, there will be times when you fail to perform the "trivially easy" in time.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: |
The reason the Unterhau from Alber seems so effective agaisnt the Sheitelhau is that people haven't thought it through. In my opinion, the only time to use the Vier Versetzen (and *especially* Sheitelhau against Alber) is just as someone moves into guard. When you look at them that way, the Vier Versetzen work phenomenally well. That's one of the best things about the Scheitelhau Versetzen: It teaches you this concept. |
This could well be the case, which would thereby explain the proper application of the Scheitelhaw. As an attack delivered Indes the Scheitelhaw would certainly be much harder to defend against.
For the record, my bit of wondering about the Scheitelhaw is mine and mine alone. Other members of the ARMA may well have already figured this out, so do not assume that because I was not sure that everyone else is not sure either.
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Hugo Voisine wrote: | | Randall : I'm eager to see this new video. I found Arma's videos to be very instructive and fun. |
You will really enjoy the action from the recent prize plays. The action was hard and fast. In his prize play for sword & buckler Stew Feil fought 90 matches in 40 minutes. The video of his prize play will also give you a first look at Stew's and Brian Hunt's interpretation and application of I.33 that will published very soon.
| Anders Nilsson wrote: | In Talhoffer 1467 there is a plate showing a attack against the oponents ledaing leg with a onehanded whipping attack. I have used this with great effect several times. I start with the high guard, threating my oponent until he raises his sword, then I snap out with the sword in my left hand, aiming for his leading leg. If your oponent is unfamiliar with that attack it usually work.
To counter this I ussually raise my leading foot over my oponents attacking blade and, strike him in the head. |
I think Craig Peters answered this nicely. Lefting the foot is one way to void a leg attack if the attack is aimed at the lower leg. However, many leg attacks are is aimed at the knee, making such a void almost impossible.
| Michael Edelson wrote: | | An easy way to "counter" it would be to not hover in the zufechten without attacking. |
Exactly  Such leg attacks are very good at making an adversary cautious of closing distance. A major problem I observed in the sparring at the WMAW in 2006 was that people started sparring at much too close of a distance. A couple of good leg hits and/or thusts will quickly increase the distance.
| Steven H wrote: | | I am curious how the ARMA Senior Free Scholar prizeplay matches are done. Previous video I've seen have shown players bouting without headgear. I suspect that the absence of headgear will create a bias against using the uberlauffen principle fully. And ultimately how sure can you be of your interpretation if you include many more leg attacks than are described in period sources? |
The previous videos represent a sample error in that in most of our sparring matches we do wear head protection and, as Craig stated earlier, in the recent prize plays all matches were performed with head protection. In the past prize plays a very small number of matches were performed without head protection as a test of a scholar ability to safely spar in different conditions. This why the scholar is tested not only against the best of ARMA but also against the lower ranks, new comers, and select non-ARMA members (at the request of the scholar).
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: |
The reason the Unterhau from Alber seems so effective agaisnt the Sheitelhau is that people haven't thought it through. In my opinion, the only time to use the Vier Versetzen (and *especially* Sheitelhau against Alber) is just as someone moves into guard. When you look at them that way, the Vier Versetzen work phenomenally well. |
Hugh
I must disagree with you about "the only time" to use the Vier Versetzen is when someone is moving into a guard. I agree that they do work as someone is moving into a guard. However, if someone is moving into the guard then they are not "in the guard". Likewise, if someone is thowing a cut or a thrust out of a guard then they are no longer in that guard. The Vier Versetzen are taught to break the guards, ie they are used to attack someone sitting in one of the guards. The Zwerchhau is not only affective against an Oberhau thrown from Vom Tag, it also breaks the Vom Tag guard. The Sheitelhau should also be effective against someone sitting in Alber.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Just so Bill.
And, a well performed Scheitelhau will fall all the way down to the defender's hands if he passes or leans back. So, yes, sniping from Alber is profoundly unsafe. |
Against a Scheitelhau I fully agree that a rising cut from Alber is profoundly unsafe. But I do consider a sniping cut from Alber to be a very useful technique. Due to the effectiveness of explosive rising thrusts from Alber the Scheitelhau is far far from being a safe bet.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | I must disagree with you about "the only time" to use the Vier Versetzen is when someone is moving into a guard. I agree that they do work as someone is moving into a guard. However, if someone is moving into the guard then they are not "in the guard". |
I didn't say you hit someone as they're moving into the guard (although that may work, it's not, as you say, what the texts are talking about), I said to strike just after they have done so. There is a tiny moment of time where they have inertia, both physical and mental, to overcome that allows the technique to work; you just have to work Indes.
| Quote: | | The Vier Versetzen are taught to break the guards, ie they are used to attack someone sitting in one of the guards. |
That's why I wrote to do precisely that.
| Quote: | | The Sheitelhau should also be effective against someone sitting in Alber. |
As I wrote above, it is if you do it at the right moment. That was the whole point.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Randall,
| Randall Pleasant wrote: | Against a Scheitelhau I fully agree that a rising cut from Alber is profoundly unsafe. But I do consider a sniping cut from Alber to be a very useful technique. Due to the effectiveness of explosive rising thrusts from Alber the Scheitelhau is far far from being a safe bet.
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And the danger of a stop thrust is precisely why the Scheitelhau is made with the hands so high. The stop thrust will not prevent the blade from still descending on to your hands, so it's not a good bet here at all.
If it were the reasonable counter, it would be described. The reasonable and safe counter *is* described, and it's to raise your sword high into the Crown (Kron).
I've now seen a good deal of video footage from folks saying they perform the blow with their hands high and still get hit, but the hands never look as high as what Leckuchner shows with the messer. When you do this properly, the best you can reasonably hope for, with either a rising cut or stop thrust, is a double-kill - surely, neither a good resolution nor safe counter.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Greg Coffman
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | | Randall Pleasant wrote: | | I must disagree with you about "the only time" to use the Vier Versetzen is when someone is moving into a guard. I agree that they do work as someone is moving into a guard. However, if someone is moving into the guard then they are not "in the guard". |
I didn't say you hit someone as they're moving into the guard (although that may work, it's not, as you say, what the texts are talking about), I said to strike just after they have done so. There is a tiny moment of time where they have inertia, both physical and mental, to overcome that allows the technique to work; you just have to work Indes.
| Quote: | | The Vier Versetzen are taught to break the guards, ie they are used to attack someone sitting in one of the guards. |
That's why I wrote to do precisely that.
| Quote: | | The Sheitelhau should also be effective against someone sitting in Alber. |
As I wrote above, it is if you do it at the right moment. That was the whole point. |
My understanding of Vier Versetzen is that the strikes break the guards at any time. Not as the guard is being adopted. Not just after the guard has been adopted. But rather whenever the opponent is in "x" guard use "y" strike to break the guard. Not use "y" strike to break the strike that comes from "x" guard but the guard itself. So the "right moment" would be any time the person is in the guard. It's like a decision tree. Each guard closes off some oppening, but not all. First notice what guard your opponent is in and then use the appropriate Vier Versetzen to break the guard and to strike to the oppening not covered by the guard. It's not a technique about proper timing and it's not indes. It's vor. If you are striking to break someone who is in a guard, you are making the move.
So in application to scheitelhau, the strike is ment to break the guard, not necessarily the cut from alber. It works to break the guard because the person has to move out of alber (or void) otherwise they are hit.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Hugh
Ok, sorry for the mis-understanding.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Ok, sorry for the mis-understanding. |
No worries, I may not have been as clear as I thought I was.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | | Jared Smith wrote: | | If you look at the sources described in that essay, you'll find that almost all of them reflect either: A: Armored combat, in which you're safer to attack the legs because your armor is so effective, and the Fechtbücher are clear as to the value of doing so. B: Sword & buckler or sword and shield or rapier and dagger fights in which the secondary system (buckler, shield or dagger) makes it safe to attack the legs--again, there are plenty of example of this in the Fechtbücher, e.g., Lignitzer's plays of the buckler. C: fighters rendered otherwise helpless. |
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Hugh, let me add one other qualifier - polearms, which, because of their length, function like a shield - you can cut low and parry a high attack at the same time.
| Quote: | | Certainly we could invent new ways of fencing in which techniques are developed for attacking legs (and the picture Craig refers to in Talhoffer 1467 might--*might*--represent one such; then again, it's just as likely it represent the way the attacker's point drops as his opponent's step allows him to void the attack). For my part, however, I think we should stick to documentable medieval practices or else what we do has no meaning. |
Amen!
Here's Fiore's comment on leg cuts:
| Quote: | Carta 28 (page 26) Lower Left
Quando uno te tra per la gamba discresse lo pe che denanzi. O tu lo torna in dredo e tra del fendente per sua testa come qui depento. Ben che cum spada d’ doy man non si de trare del zinochio in zu. Pero che troppo grand’ pericolo a choluy che tra chello rimane tutto discoverto quello che tra per gamba. Salvo che se uno fosse cazudo in terra poria si ben trar per gamba. Ma altra mente non siando spada contra spada.
When one attacks your leg, withdraw the foot that is in front, or pass backwards, and attack with a fendente to his head as is depicted here. With the sword in two hands, you should not attack the knee or below, because there is too great a danger to the person who performs such attack. For he who attacks the leg remains completely uncovered. Save that if one of you has fallen onto the ground, then you will be able to attack him safely to the leg. But otherwise, being sword against sword, no. |
Doesn't get clearer than that, does it? Again, as Hugh has said, the reason is weapon length. If you cut at my leg, I blow your head off while slipping my leg. This technique - the slip - was taught by the masters of the 14th century, and was the preferred leg defense of sabre masters in the 19th century - for the same reason. (Indeed, this was the original reason for the exclusion of the legs as a target in modern sabre fencing.)
Does that mean you never attack the legs? Not necessarily - ripostes may occur, you may have a chance if he attempts to fly back and isn't in a position to attack you, etc. For those reasons, it is important to always include the full leg as a viable TARGET. But tactically, 600 years of swordmasters are adamant - if you open with an attack to the leg, all he needs to do is slip and cut at your head or sword arm. No amount of sparring today changes that reality.
Final comment - alluded to above - how you fence/spar affects what you perceive as "realistic". For example, Hugh and I both come from an SCA background - no hits to the knee or below, and no striking with the shield. End result - SCA fighters tend to enter very close measure and duke it out. The lack of shield strikes means inauthentic/limitted use styles like "two sword" fighting becomes highly effective (believe me guys, SCA two-sword has nothing to do with the Italian case of swords - which was never an armoured form), and techniques likes the wrap replace grappling and shield punching. Fair enough, as long as you know what causes the changes and don't try to rewrite history.
By the same token, lots of folks come from boffer backgrounds or spar without helmets.These folks tend to play at great distance - wider than what is normally seen - and snipe at the hands and the low legs, which become a target because overrunning is less effective. Stop thrusts are also less used and less appreciated, because to stop a cut the stop thrust must hit the upper chest/neck/face or the weapon arm, and the former is off-target, or runs a risk of rising up and going off target.
Solution simple - 1) use a full target and always wear headgear to minimize distortions, 2) when drilling, follow Hugh's advice and stick to documentable medieval practices.
Best,
Greg [/quote]
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Hugo Voisine
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| Posted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Very interesting posts guys, thanks a lot. 
| Quote: | And the danger of a stop thrust is precisely why the Scheitelhau is made with the hands so high. The stop thrust will not prevent the blade from still descending on to your hands, so it's not a good bet here at all.
If it were the reasonable counter, it would be described. The reasonable and safe counter *is* described, and it's to raise your sword high into the Crown (Kron).
I've now seen a good deal of video footage from folks saying they perform the blow with their hands high and still get hit, but the hands never look as high as what Leckuchner shows with the messer. When you do this properly, the best you can reasonably hope for, with either a rising cut or stop thrust, is a double-kill - surely, neither a good resolution nor safe counter. |
Christian (or any one else), do you think you can provide us with a video which "do it right" concerning the placement of the hands during a Scheitelhau, done with the longsword (preferably), or the messer ? Or maybe some pictures ? I'm a very visual person. 
« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Mele wrote: | | Hugh, let me add one other qualifier - polearms, which, because of their length, function like a shield - you can cut low and parry a high attack at the same time. |
Hi Greg,
I thought I said something about pole arms somewhere in this thread, but I was probably talking about pollaxe in full harness since I don't study halberd, etc. (which were often used in partial harness or without one) as you do, but you're absolutely correct. Hell, with a pole weapon you can often be in a high bind and still reach your opponent's *foot*, never mind just the leg.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | And the danger of a stop thrust is precisely why the Scheitelhau is made with the hands so high. The stop thrust will not prevent the blade from still descending on to your hands, so it's not a good bet here at all.
If it were the reasonable counter, it would be described. The reasonable and safe counter *is* described, and it's to raise your sword high into the Crown (Kron).
I've now seen a good deal of video footage from folks saying they perform the blow with their hands high and still get hit, but the hands never look as high as what Leckuchner shows with the messer. When you do this properly, the best you can reasonably hope for, with either a rising cut or stop thrust, is a double-kill - surely, neither a good resolution nor safe counter. |
Christian
I fully agree. My point is that the Scheitelhau is itself not always a sure bet because as you describe, in many cases against a thrust you have indeed cut down on your adversary but you also now have taken a sword thrust in your chest. The double kill is a problem for both people.  Although none of us can speak from experience, it is my guess that once a sword stabs into a person's body the cut they are performing loses almost all of its effectiveness.
I also agree about the height of the hands.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Randall,
A couple of things:
1. The stop thrust to the chest is very hard to even accomplish if your hands are high up with the Scheitelhau. The Scheitelhau, because of the positioning of the shoulders, represents the very maximum range achieveable with the longsword.
2 . If the guy doesn't frame his Scheitelhau properly, and the stop thrust does reach, then I agree with you, as the stop thrust will physically push the opponent back and away from you, shortening his stroke's range. This, however, has nothing to do with the cut completing itself, because that happens automatically: the Scheitelhau is performed with the hilt projecting high, and gravity doing most of the work of dropping the point onto him.
Hugo,
Well, I just returned from my upstate NY seminar last week. Lots of video was taken, so let's see what we have after Todd & Co. do some editing.
If that doesn't work out, my intent is nonetheless to shoot some footage of the Five Strokes this Autumn and put them up on our the Selohaar website.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Hugh, let me add one other qualifier - polearms, which, because of their length, function like a shield - you can cut low and parry a high attack at the same time. |
Are there any actual strikes to the legs in polearm sources? I can only think of hooking, which appears in both Meyer's halberd and Silver's forest bill.
As a side note, Silver has the thigh as a possible target for various ripostes with the sword.
Last edited by Benjamin H. Abbott on Tue 28 Aug, 2007 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Benjamin H. Abbott wrote: | | Are there any actual strikes to the legs in polearm sources? I can only think of hooking, which appears in both Meyer's halberd and Silver's forest bill. |
I don't study halberd or bill combat so I can't speak to those, and pollaxe combat is, of course, fully-armored combat so striking the legs is moot, but Le jeu de La Hache says "And you must deliver these jabs frequently, sometimes at the foot and sometimes at the hand or face; so that he does not find your axe at all still" (para. 25) Since sabatons were frequently left off in foot combat (to judge by the iconography) that makes sense if you stretch the definition of "leg" to include the feet.
Moreover, Ringeck, writing of the Mordschlag, says: "Attack with the pommel: If you want to strike with the pommel, you are to direct it particularly to his forward extremities. If you want to strike, hold your sword in the guard over the head and do it in such a way as if you want to thrust him in the face. Then release the sword with your right hand and seize the blade with it beside the left. Strike with the pommel to his lead foot or his forward hand, where he holds the sword at the blade. You can also strike from the lower guard from the right side." He also gives a defense to be used against a Mordschlag to the knee, so someone must have used that strike (although I suspect it was intended to dent the articulation of the poleyn and thus make it hard for the victim to move his leg rather than to cause any real physical damage; I've been hit in the knee by *brutal* men and it really doesn't do much at all through decent plate).
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | | Greg Mele wrote: | | Hugh, let me add one other qualifier - polearms, which, because of their length, function like a shield - you can cut low and parry a high attack at the same time. |
Hi Greg,
I thought I said something about pole arms somewhere in this thread, but I was probably talking about pollaxe in full harness since I don't study halberd, etc. (which were often used in partial harness or without one) as you do, but you're absolutely correct. Hell, with a pole weapon you can often be in a high bind and still reach your opponent's *foot*, never mind just the leg. |
I could have just missed it, too! Agreed on the poleaxe. I like a shorter axe - about 5.5 feet, which sometimes is as little dicier to strike below the knee and ward the head unless you've move in deep, but even then, knee hooks are easy.
And yes, they are one of the few weapons that can threaten both head and shin while playing from dagger range! That's why I think they are some of the most exciting - and most challenging - weapons to play with.
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