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Hugh Knight
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 Posted: Fri 17 Aug, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Nicholas Zeman wrote: | | Hugh, I will look through my copy of The Last Duel tonight, I seem to specifically recall that mention of the shortened axes for horseback but of course it could be my memory playing tricks on me. Even if I can locate a mention, it might just be the author's misunderstanding of something. I agree with you that the author's understanding of arms, armor, and combat during the 14th century was shallow at best, I also found myself raising an eyebrow or two at some of the statements about the actual duel (like the "heavy" armor, the visor lock, etc...). I did find the book highly dramatic and entertaining, as well as fair-minded and pragmatic about the events and legal case surrounding the duel. |
Hi Nicholas,
I, too, found the book enjoyable; Jager really tried to put a human face on an historical event--something all too rare. But no book on an historical subject that lacks footnotes and documenation can ever really be taken seriously; the casual reader can ignore them, but the more serious reader must be able to check the author's claims else the book is ultimately fluff.
As for his understanding of armor and combat, that's endemic throughout the professional history community. They ridicule anyone who focuses on anything other than "big picture trends" and scornfully refer to those who focus on the arms and equipment of war as "tank spotters" (from the WWII enthusiasts who spend a lot of time studying tanks). Unfortunately, contrary to the modern peacenik notion that "violence never solves anything", it turns out that in reality, almost nothing of real worth has ever been solved without violence or the threat of violence, so it behooves historians to understand the tools of war and their use. A pity many do not (although there are excellent exceptions, such as professor Kelly DeVries).
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
Last edited by Hugh Knight on Sat 18 Aug, 2007 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Fri 17 Aug, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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There are actually a good deal more historians who appreciate arms and armour in the academic field although in many respects the study of history passed through its own historic trends and fads if you will. I really enjoy a great deal of Matthew Bennett, Chris Gravett, Cliff Rogers, Tobias Capwell (go and read his book the fighting stuff- awesome!), Jim Bradbury and others. Kelly Devries is good for much of his work though I have some reservations still on some of his themes. It would seem war is looked upon quite poorly not just be many academics but especially the average westerner. Not with bad reason but in some cases but it has gotten to a state of naivety now. I really think that it goes both ways though. You focus too little on the big picture and you miss most of what is going on. Focus too much on it and you miss little portions that are important to the big picture.
RPM
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Fri 17 Aug, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | | There are actually a good deal more historians who appreciate arms and armour in the academic field although in many respects the study of history passed through its own historic trends and fads if you will. I really enjoy a great deal of Matthew Bennett, Chris Gravett, Cliff Rogers, Tobias Capwell (go and read his book the fighting stuff- awesome!), Jim Bradbury and others. Kelly Devries is good for much of his work though I have some reservations still on some of his themes. It would seem war is looked upon quite poorly not just be many academics but especially the average westerner. Not with bad reason but in some cases but it has gotten to a state of naivety now. I really think that it goes both ways though. You focus too little on the big picture and you miss most of what is going on. Focus too much on it and you miss little portions that are important to the big picture. |
Granted, Randall: Perhaps I was painting with slightly too broad of a brush, but I've faced a lot of frustration over various things over the years from this.
Incidentally, I agree very much about some of the folks you mention: I've had the privelege of corresponding with Cliff Rogers; his book on the Hundred Years War is magnificent and is my primary source on the subject now. And I have Toby Capwell's book; it's really cool to look at the sequence showing him being armed in his 15th-century harness because I spent many hours at Mac's shop while that harness was being built and have had several parts of it on (though not all--Toby's a *lot* skinnier than I!).
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Christopher Lee
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sat 18 Aug, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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Would anyone have any thoughts about the dimensions of the talhoffer poleaxe heads? I have been considering commissioning a repro of one and am not really sure that the dimensions depicted in talhoffer would necessarily be accurate?
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Mon 03 Sep, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Sunday 9/02 I went to the Bristol Faire on the IL / WI border and once I got done sitting in my car in a long line for 50 minutes (horrible organization of attendants, near packed grass lot) from 2:15 until 3:05, and walked through the entry gate, I made a direct proambulation (walk  ) to the Arms & Armor store and said a gleeful hello to Chris Poor and Jesse, then immediately inspected the 2 remaining Bec De Corbins and decided on the one I bought with cash for
$480.00.
I've been wanting a Bec De Corbin badly for 2 years now and this was the "last chance to dance" for a BDC until probably a couple of years from Arms & Armor. The current casting has been retired and they will be going to a new design according to what Chris told me. So knowing this ahead of time some weeks ago, but did not have the cash then, I had to hope and wait until my opportunity arose to sieze the moment of glory! LOL
I specifically wanted the Arms & Armor BDC, so I've really been feeling the anxiety crunch for some time until yesterday and now I am elated, because this one is a real beautiful replica of a once very dreadful polearm. Except for the top spike it looks a lot like the Bec De Corbin in the 6th picture down, 4th from the left on the first page of this thread, which is long and leaf bladed in a flat diamond profile. The dimensions are as follows:
The haft is 58 inches, 1 3/8" wide and 1" thick. The overall length from the butt end of the ash haft to the distal tip of the "warhead" is 66 1/2 inches, top leaf spike is 6 1/4 inches long from the octagon shaped (proximal to the haft) base and at it's widest point is 1 7/16", side spikes are 2 inches, hollow hammer with 4 corners is 2 1/2", rear curved spike is 3 5/16. Point of top spike to end of langets is 23 78 inches.
From checking the difference of just me and then me holding the Bec De Corbin on the digital bathroom scales the BEC weighs exactly 5.0 pounds. It has a real nice feel to it in all the various grips, also the balance point is 44 1/16 inches from the butt end of the haft and 22 1/16 from the tip of the top spike.
WOW! Am I ever glad I was able to acquire this polearm! 
Bob
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Mon 03 Sep, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Bob,
Sounds like a nice find. If you ever put pictures up I'd love to see it. How far down do the langetts go and do they cover the sides alone or front and back as well?
I do not know of this works but it was an interesting program, albeit as conquest does sometimes is a bit less than scientific or academic.
http://www.history.com/marquee.do?content_typ...e_id=53127
RPM
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Thu 06 Sep, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: |
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I will take some pictures and post the download info soon. The langets go down the sides only a length of 15 13/16"
they are 3/4" wide and 1/8" thick. This is one sturdy polearm if I ever saw one 
Bob
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Sat 08 Sep, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Listed below are pictures of my newly acquired Arms & Armor "Bec De Corbin" of which I am extremely fond of and grateful there were still a couple left at the faire to choose from. I would have felt sick with regret had I not bought this polearm. Especially given the fact that there will not be any more Becs' of this particular style in the future.
I am one happy collector rigtht now!
Bob
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Bob,
it is amazing. what a beautiful weapon. I especially like the back spike! Your garden looks lovely as well. Thanks for the pictures they really make it clear how nice a weapon it is. Thanks for the stats on it as well. It does look like a very effective weapon.
RPM
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: |
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Very nice Bob and those side spikes look really long.  Longer than the one's on their standard Poleaxe or Warhammer.
By the way I just ordered the French Warhammer that is currently in stock: I'm still waiting for confirmation that Craig got my e-mail and that it's mine. 
E-mail sent late at night during weekend so I don't expect a reply until some time this week.
IF I remember correctly I think you have the Warhammer?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Thank you very much Jean! Yes I do have the warhammer, I passed it up at the faire a couple of years in a row and I go about 6 times a summer, then I finally bought it, beating out another guy by 10 minutes who had come back to buy it that day. When I got the warhammer I cussed myself out for an hour for having passed it up those 2 years!
I am absolutely thrilled with the Bec De Corbin, it was worth every dime!
Here are 2 more pictures.
Much Thanks,
Bob
Jean, your gonna love that warhammer!
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Bob,
That is a great looking Bec De Corbin. I looked at the warhammer when I was at Bristol toward the end of July. I still look at it on their site too. Have you had a chance to try it out on anything yet?
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you very much Randall for your very kind compliments on the Bec De Corbin and my wife's garden, they were very much appreciated
Grateful!
Bob
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot Scott! Yes I've bashed several things with the warhammer, it's indestructible. I destroyed some old kitchen cabinets being thrown out by a neighbor / friend. Mangled an old DVD player, the spikes pierce metal, absolutely no damage to the warhammer whatsoever!
Bob
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Jason G. Smith
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Think they've got any of those left?! :-) I wanna play too!
Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jason, there was one left at the Bristol Fair on the IL / WI border Sunday of Labor Day Weekend, that fair is now closed. It probably went to the Minneapolis Renaissance Faire. If you want it, I'd advise you to call Arms & Armor and or email them to let them know so they can hold it for you if it's not been sold yet.
This is one fantastic polearm! Acquiring the Arms & Armor custom Sparth Axe and this Bec De Corbin within 2 to
3 months of each other, I am feeling rather spoiled right now!
Chris Poor "Owner of Arms & Armor" told me that when he does the Bec De Corbin again that it is going to be different from this one. Should be very interesting because I know he is good friends with David Edge of the Wallace Collection in England and has access to a lot of beautiful original pieces! Chris is one Brilliant Class Act of a Gentleman
Jason, I Hope you get to "Play" too! There might be yet another one in addition to the one left that I know of that was already at the Minneapolis Renaissance Faire but I do not know. Just a guess on my part.
Best of Luck on this acquisition Jason!
Bob
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Bob,
Good to hear that the warhammer is so solid. I am really going to have to think about this. Though on the other hand I am currently thinking about commissioning another sword. Decisions decisions.
So how does the Bec perform? I mean you have had it for a week now. You have had to have used on something, right?
And about that sparth axe. How does it perform? Whacked any plywood or anything else with it yet? I hope you posted pictures because I am going to go looking after this. IF not, please do post pictures of it.
Scott
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason G. Smith wrote: | | Think they've got any of those left?! :-) I wanna play too! |
HEY ! I hope they have more than one in stock but I got to at least ONE first ....... Well, that is unless someone sent an e-mail just before me  ( Or if it got sold at that other fair !? ).
Bob: Nice to have so many different angles of the Bec de Corbin to better understand the shape subtleties as to many pics in books just show a profile photograph.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon 10 Sep, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Bob, would you be so good as to measure and tell me how long the side spikes are on that murdering piece you have there? They look rather nasty.
I'm curious about them, because I was talking to someone else a long time ago, and he was saying he had never seen particularly long side spikes on a historical example. At the time my opinion was that side spikes were designed to keep someone (Who had driven the head of your weapon onto the ground) from then stepping on it to pin it while hitting you elsewhere. But I gave up the notion because the spikes on SOME historical examples are short, and not too sharp.
A move very like that is shown with the English Bill in Terry Brown's English Martial Arts.
And those spike would certainly keep my feet off your iron if all I had were historical shoes.
Long spikes or short, that's a heck of a hammer you bought!
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 10 Sep, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Bob Burns wrote: | Thanks a lot Scott! Yes I've bashed several things with the warhammer, it's indestructible. I destroyed some old kitchen cabinets being thrown out by a neighbor / friend. Mangled an old DVD player, the spikes pierce metal, absolutely no damage to the warhammer whatsoever!
Bob |
Craig got back to me so the Warhammer is mine. 
I should have it to play with late this week or early next week.
It does look like a one handed Bec de Corbin, just to bring thing back to the Poleaxe and it's variants.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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