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Michael Edelson
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 Posted: Mon 06 Aug, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Pell |
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| Charlee Garvin wrote: | If I were angry at a man
I would kill him with a single blow
of my pretty toothpick---
oil it
and put it away.
since this happens infrequently
it should stand
a lifetime of use.
Charlee Garvin |
I could pick my teeth with a knife,
or use a fork to comb my hair,
but steel is best to take a life,
so leave the wood for making chairs.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Charlee Garvin
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| Posted: Mon 06 Aug, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: Ha! |
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Touché Edelson!
I’m so happy there is fun to be had on this site!
Regards,
Charlee
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Andrew Shultz
Location: Boston MA Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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In wood Raven Studios and New Stirling Arms both make wasters which are much better in balance and feel than Purpleheart.
The exception being if you are going to bash the hell out of them with slamming pell work, in which case you probably want the increased solidity of Purpleheart's wasters.
But if you are going to solo or partner drill you want something that flows like a sharp, and for that Raven or Stirling.
-andy
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew Shultz wrote: | In wood Raven Studios and New Stirling Arms both make wasters which are much better in balance and feel than Purpleheart.
The exception being if you are going to bash the hell out of them with slamming pell work, in which case you probably want the increased solidity of Purpleheart's wasters.
But if you are going to solo or partner drill you want something that flows like a sharp, and for that Raven or Stirling.
-andy |
I concur on the New Sterling Arms, both in terms of feel and balance and lack of pell worthiness. However, Purpleheart has a new line of wasters out with steel pomels. I have yet to play with these, but if they combine toughness and balance then they've got to be pretty cool.
New Sterling Arms achieves their balance by using metal inside that large wooden pommel of theirs. A great idea. I have one of our house brand wasters made from Jatoba, tough as nails, but the pommel was a prototype and fell off. The handle was very long, so I took a roud boat zinc anode (think big metal ball in two havles that you can attach to a shaft) and bolted it to the handle. The balance is great, but weird. Same for the NSA.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | About Eastern sensibilities, I have only seen one boken break in over 10 years of JSA. I've personally broken 4 wasters in the last couple of years, and that's only because I've been slacking off on the pell work. |
Just out of curiosity, how much power do you put in your pell work? I realize this will be hard to describe in words, but... The few times I've done something with a pell or things like that, it was more as a work on distance and precision, never hitting with anywhere near the power it would need to break the waster... I've been striking at full speed possibly, but not hitting so hard.
Well perhaps this should go into another thread.
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Just out of curiosity, how much power do you put in your pell work? I realize this will be hard to describe in words, but... The few times I've done something with a pell or things like that, it was more as a work on distance and precision, never hitting with anywhere near the power it would need to break the waster... I've been striking at full speed possibly, but not hitting so hard. |
I'm not speaking for Michael, but if you're hitting the pell hard you're teaching yourself bad habits in my opinion. A sword is sharp and will cut without a great deal of force, so hitting hard only teaches you to overcut like people do who do too much test cutting. You can kill with little more than the motion of your hands pushing and pulling the hilt of your sword--big powerful strikes are unrealistic and cause you to telegraph your actions.
For me, the pell is about developing accuracy, muscular endurance (hence the double-weighted swords often referred to in primary sources), and muscle memory (from which comes speed); that's it.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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I'm with Hugh on this, and to answer Vincent's question, I don't put a lot of power into the cut...whatever the natural motion of my body generates while using proper form (at least to the best of my ability). I use a stationary pell made of pine, however I have also broken wasters on a free swinging padded pell, which never made sense to me.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew Shultz wrote: | In wood Raven Studios and New Stirling Arms both make wasters which are much better in balance and feel than Purpleheart.
The exception being if you are going to bash the hell out of them with slamming pell work, in which case you probably want the increased solidity of Purpleheart's wasters.
But if you are going to solo or partner drill you want something that flows like a sharp, and for that Raven or Stirling. |
If you're far enough along in your training that the balance and handling are real issues then you need to get rid of your wasters in partner practice and move on to steel blunts. Nothing else even comes close. Trying to get better wasters to learn the subtleties of sword handling is like trying to learn how to ride a spirited thoroughbred by getting a hobby horse that's closer to the right size than the one you had as a child.
Wasters are for newcomers to learn the rough movements of swordsmanship while they decide if they're committed enough to invest in the correct gear and maybe for pell work (and if you make a rubber tire pell you shouldn't have a problem doing pell work with a decent blunt, either).
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | I have also broken wasters on a free swinging padded pell, which never made sense to me. |
Hi Michael,
It's because of inertia: The waster breaks before the heavy swinging target can get out of the way.
Incidentally, have you tried making a Tire Pell? You get two car tires and tie them together to form a figure eight. You drill holes around the inside rim of the top one and lace a bungee cord through the holes to secure a circular target inside the opening of the tire for thrusting. You then suspend the whole affair from a single tie at the top of the upper tire and two ties (one on each side) of the lower tire (to minimize movement). This arrangement has a lot of advantages: It's rubber so it gives a little which protects both your joints and your swords. It's wider than most post-style pells, so you learn to cut around a human-sized target. It has an almost horizontal surface on the top for practicing things like the Schielhau and the Scheitelhau which are extremely hard to do on the post pell. I'm also thinking of how to secure a rod out of the middle to practice winding and the Krumphau.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Eging wrote: | I have wasters from Raven Studios, Purple Heart, Wooden Weapons and Hollow Earth. I think it would be a good resource for people to have a way to review them prior to making the purchase. I find the Raven Studios wasters to be simply the finest wooden waster I have ever used. My Ravens are tough and fantastic in drills and freeplay. I have found most of my selections to be tough and durable, but each has aged differently and had different handling characteristics. I think this might be of interest to folks considering a waster purchase... great topic! 
Mike |
To be fair I haven't tried Raven Studios wasters, but I use New Stierling Arms wasters and feel they are "the finest wooden waster I have ever used" to borrow your line. ;-) I've used them for years and when one of mine broke, they replaced it for free. ;-)
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Michael Eging
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bryce Felperin wrote: | | Michael Eging wrote: | I have wasters from Raven Studios, Purple Heart, Wooden Weapons and Hollow Earth. I think it would be a good resource for people to have a way to review them prior to making the purchase. I find the Raven Studios wasters to be simply the finest wooden waster I have ever used. My Ravens are tough and fantastic in drills and freeplay. I have found most of my selections to be tough and durable, but each has aged differently and had different handling characteristics. I think this might be of interest to folks considering a waster purchase... great topic!
Mike |
To be fair I haven't tried Raven Studios wasters, but I use New Stierling Arms wasters and feel they are "the finest wooden waster I have ever used" to borrow your line. ;-) I've used them for years and when one of mine broke, they replaced it for free. ;-) |
New Sterling is a very good waster. I have played with them a few times with sparring partners who own them. I had heard they have good customer service, so sounds like it works for you!
Mike
M. Eging
Hamilton, VA
www.silverhornechoes.com
Member of the HEMA Alliance
http://hemaalliance.com/
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Jody A
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jan, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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For someone about to buy a waster - this has been an interesting thread - sorry to see it die down. Anyone else out there who has experience with these wasters your ongoing comments would be appreciated - particularly instructors who go through lots of them. It would also be helpful if myArmoury added waster suppliers to the links section (maybe they're there already, but I couldn't find them) ...
QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
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Craig Shira
Location: California Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri 25 Jan, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: I Highly Recommend New Stirling Arms |
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| Jody A wrote: | | Anyone else out there who has experience with these wasters your ongoing comments would be appreciated |
Hi there. I am a proud owner of a New Stirling Arms rondel, dusack, and a longsword waster. All are very well balanced.
The rondel looks like it came straight from the period texts, complete with the big round tip so that controlled thrusts are not lethal. The rondel comes in two models, the difference being the thickness of the grip. I have tiny hands, so I have the model with the thinner grip. Everyone else I practice with also uses New Stirling Arms rondels, but with the standard grip. I have recommended the New Stirling Arms rondel with great results.
The dusack, like all New Stirling Arms wasters, is sturdy and responsive. Jim, who designs the wasters, worked with dusack instructor Jared Kirby to get the balance and flow of the weapon down and I have found that it is the best feeling dusack I have ever held. Everything else I have held has been a lumbering, uncomfortable chunk of wood. I have also used my dusack in drills against steel. Not the best idea, but the dusack held strong and the resulting damage was negligible.
Reinforcing the argument about the durability, a friend watched a bout at ISMAC about two years ago. The person with a New Stirling Arms dusack caused his opponent's dusack, created by another maker, to splinter when they met, rendering the weapon useless. The New Stirling Arms dusack was unscathed.
My hand-and-a-half sword is balanced quite well. I own an Arms & Armor Fechterspiel and I find that the overall weight and balance between the two is justifiably comparable. So close are the two that I can easily switch between the wooden sword and the steel sword without any problems. Like the rondel and dusack, it is strong and sturdy. A new version of the hand-and-a-half has been designed with quillons that slope slightly forward (as apposed to straight quillons on the standard model), have a scent-stopper pommel, and a slightly longer grip. Nick-named the "Davenriche," wasters in this variation are very nice weapons too.
The one (and only) design problem I have run into with my longsword is that the quillons are thick. This is done for strength; otherwise, it would easily break. The thickness makes it uncomfortable to place my thumb on the blade, since it has to contend with a piece of wood between the base of the blade and the grip. One could slide down the hand so that, instead of resting on the blade, the thumb rests on the grip. However, that puts the hands closer together, which some may find uncomfortable.
As I mentioned, I have tiny hands, so people with larger hands will view my "hillside" as a mere "speed-bump." In fact, out of everyone I practice with, none take issue with this at all. Besides, if you don't put your thumb on the blade, this critique is insignificant But, with the new longsword model with the longer handle, this shouldn't be as great an issue anyway.
In summary, all of New Stirling Arms pieces represent their historical steel equivalents better than some contemporary steel swords I've handled. They also easily best any wooden sword-like object I've handled. Off the top of my head, I have seen New Stirling Arms offer daggers, single-handed swords, viking-era swords, longswords, great swords, zweihänders, dusacks, messers, and cutlasses for martial use. They also make a few decorative wooden swords too, such as a quaint gladius, and awesome trebuchet kits.
They make the best wooden wasters.
(Craig)
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F. Carl Holz
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| Posted: Sat 26 Jan, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Recently they have started making wasters out of some type of plastic or nylon or something. These seem to get one of three types of reviews though. People seem to either love, hate, or have no use for them because wasters aren't part of their training. I haven't handled any, but the specs are generally a little light, but still acurate, with the balance a little farther out than most wooden wasters, but once again still acurate to steel, or else insanely close to the guard. The real praise for these though is that they can still be used against wood, they react more like steel when contact is made and (this is the big one) they are reputed to be indestructible.
the provider I'm thinking of getting one from is the Dwarven Smithy. In particular because they come closer to the 3lb average that one usually shoots for in a longsword waster (in a post they said their's place at about 2lb 7oz., still a little off, but closer than 2lb 2oz. and still reflective of actual steel originals.)
The other great thing is that you're gonna pay about the same amount of money as for a wooden one.
The criticism usually runs: the balance is to far out/ way to far in, they are too light, or why aren't you using steel? Really, some of the other posts have been right, wasters are a great entry tool for people starting out, especially those on a budget, but in the end ya gotta go steel. But till then I might as well get something thats gonna last.
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Jody A
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| Posted: Thu 27 Mar, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: I Highly Recommend New Stirling Arms |
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| Craig Shira wrote: | .Hi there. I am a proud owner of a New Stirling Arms rondel, dusack, and a longsword waster. All are very well balanced ... My hand-and-a-half sword is balanced quite well. I own an Arms & Armor Fechterspiel and I find that the overall weight and balance between the two is justifiably comparable. So close are the two that I can easily switch between the wooden sword and the steel sword without any problems. Like the rondel and dusack, it is strong and sturdy. A new version of the hand-and-a-half has been designed with quillons that slope slightly forward (as apposed to straight quillons on the standard model), have a scent-stopper pommel, and a slightly longer grip. Nick-named the "Davenriche," wasters in this variation are very nice weapons too.
The one (and only) design problem I have run into with my longsword is that the quillons are thick. This is done for strength; otherwise, it would easily break. The thickness makes it uncomfortable to place my thumb on the blade, since it has to contend with a piece of wood between the base of the blade and the grip. One could slide down the hand so that, instead of resting on the blade, the thumb rests on the grip. However, that puts the hands closer together, which some may find uncomfortable.
As I mentioned, I have tiny hands, so people with larger hands will view my "hillside" as a mere "speed-bump." In fact, out of everyone I practice with, none take issue with this at all. Besides, if you don't put your thumb on the blade, this critique is insignificant But, with the new longsword model with the longer handle, this shouldn't be as great an issue anyway.
In summary, all of New Stirling Arms pieces represent their historical steel equivalents better than some contemporary steel swords I've handled. They also easily best any wooden sword-like object I've handled. Off the top of my head, I have seen New Stirling Arms offer daggers, single-handed swords, viking-era swords, longswords, great swords, zweihänders, dusacks, messers, and cutlasses for martial use. They also make a few decorative wooden swords too, such as a quaint gladius, and awesome trebuchet kits.
They make the best wooden wasters.. |
For completeness, I thought I'd check back in and report that I ended up getting 2 New Stirling Arms Type A longsword wasters with straight guards (ok, I'm solo training right now, but one can be optimistic and plan ahead, right ..?  ). I'm a rank novice, but I was surprised by the quality and feel of these wasters - the wood is flawless and the design and workmanship and level of finish are very refined. I was expecting something much blockier looking and feeling, but thats not what I got. These wasters not only look like swords, they handle very well and feel good in the hands. I included your quote above, Craig, because I too notice the guard thickness with the thumb on the blade, but my hands are bigger and it doesn't bother me, and when I switch back to my Albion I find it makes the real sword feel that much sleeker. Not that I have anything to compare it too, but as a first-time waster buyer I am very happy with the NSA's. And the folks at NSA are efficient and professional to deal with, giving me production and delivery estimates and shipping internationally, all in less than a week. Thanks again to everyone who takes the time to post these types of threads - a great resource!
QUI FALSITATE VIVIT, ANIMAM OCCIDIT. FALSUS IN ORE, CARET HONORE.
"Who lives in falsehood slays his soul, whose speech is false, his honour".
Inscription on type XII dated 1040-60 (Records, Oakeshott)
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Sa'ar Nudel
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| Posted: Sat 29 Mar, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| F. Carl Holz wrote: | Recently they have started making wasters out of some type of plastic or nylon or something. These seem to get one of three types of reviews though. People seem to either love, hate, or have no use for them because wasters aren't part of their training. I haven't handled any, but the specs are generally a little light, but still acurate, with the balance a little farther out than most wooden wasters, but once again still acurate to steel, or else insanely close to the guard. The real praise for these though is that they can still be used against wood, they react more like steel when contact is made and (this is the big one) they are reputed to be indestructible.
the provider I'm thinking of getting one from is the Dwarven Smithy. In particular because they come closer to the 3lb average that one usually shoots for in a longsword waster (in a post they said their's place at about 2lb 7oz., still a little off, but closer than 2lb 2oz. and still reflective of actual steel originals.)
The other great thing is that you're gonna pay about the same amount of money as for a wooden one.
The criticism usually runs: the balance is to far out/ way to far in, they are too light, or why aren't you using steel? Really, some of the other posts have been right, wasters are a great entry tool for people starting out, especially those on a budget, but in the end ya gotta go steel. But till then I might as well get something thats gonna last. |
Hmmm, I was wandering why nobody has mentioned yet the synthetic wasters. For my own opinion, wasters are a must, as long as they stand for what they intend to do: a (relatively) chip, safe, practical replacement for steel sword. Wooden wasters chip and break. The blades are stiff. I haven't the opportunity to check the plastic wasters made by an ARMA member in the USA but I did check a nylon waster made in Spain, used by the Boar's Tooth school in England. The weight is realistic and so is the balance, blade flexes somewhat. It does, however, have a steel pommel and steel guard, construction is heavy duty, it does feel indestructible. Problem is that price is not cheap, 80 euros for a hand-and-a-half sword, 70 euros for a single hand and the intl' shipping fee from Spain is high.
A word of mouth tells that by 2009, a famous knife & sword making firm will introduce a synthetic WMA waster with a very competitive price tag.
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Sat 29 Mar, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: |
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I like this idea and why not? It can't hurt to guide people to the good stuff.
I just ordered two singlesticks from Purpleheart Armoury that I'll review when they arrive. I can already say though that the customer service seems very good. I made a call early in the morning (just 9.00) and they answered my call and rectified the shipping situation that I screwed up.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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