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Jared Bauder
Location: Jerome, ID Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 3
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 Posted: Sat 21 Jul, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: Pauldron Construction |
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I am a college student at the University of Idaho and a member of the Society of Creative Anachronism and I am constructing my own suit of armor. My ambition is to have my armor be as historically accurate as possible in construction and styles. My focus is on the German Gothic styles from 1450 through the early 1500s. I have been in contact with the Higgins Armory Museum and they have suggested I ask my questions to praticing armorers.
I have recently run into a road block with the construction of my pauldrons. In my research I have learned that the lames of the pauldrons were attached by sliding rivets at the back and leather straps on the side and front portions. The top lame overlaps the one below all the way down. I have pictures of the insides of historical examples which show the sliding rivets and the side leather strap which attach by blind rivets but the pictures don’t show how the front portions of the lames were connected. What confuses me is the fact that on the outside front, there is a row of rivets down the lames similar to the back side of the pauldron. It appears to me that these rivets couldn’t possible be attached to the respective lames below because it would inhibit movement of the arm.
My questions:
Are the lames for the front side connected the same way with blind rivets as the side strap therefore making the front external row of rivets just for aesthetical purposes?
Could you please help me with a verbal description and/or pictures of how the lames were attached? Attached is a similar example of the pauldrons I am constructing. Notice the row of rivets down the front and back. How would the lames move as shown in the picture?
 Attachment: 12.29 KB
When fight or making armor,
smash with care.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 21 Jul, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Are the lames for the front side connected the same way with blind rivets as the side strap therefore making the front external row of rivets just for aesthetical purposes? |
BINGO!
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W. Schütz
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Pics that might shed some light;
Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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depends.. be careful with using modern reproductions for period interpretations. foot armour would probably be constructed differently than that of tilting armour. and 50 years and place of origin can have a drastic effect on how each piece of armour is made.
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W. Schütz
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 23 Jul, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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The pics posted by me was not for use as replacement for the study of period items, but rather a detailed view at how it can be done, when made by one of the best now adays. Also the way rivets, straps and lames are constructed here are of a fairly common method of period armour as it seemes to me.
Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Jared Bauder
Location: Jerome, ID Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon 23 Jul, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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If it helps, the time period I am specifically focussing on is 1480 + or - 10 years. The Higgins Museum said that the rivets on the front are connected directly to the leather strap and not through the lame underneath. This confuses me as the top of the lame beneth it would rest up against the rivet in the lame above. Are any of you familar with and could share some insite or how it would be useful?
Thanks for the pictures.
I have the book "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" by David Edge & John Miles Paddock and in that book there is a picture of the an arm harness of the Waldislas type construciton and the front rivets apear as the museams states. I know the Waldislas armor is not in my time period but it is the the only authentic peice I have too look at some of the inside.
Also three questions that has arisen from the picture you posted,
1. I thought that the floating elbows of that time period were laced to the ackton and not to the cannons? Was it also done as the pictures shows? I haven't run across anything to support it.
2. Can you describe the motion of the lames when they have sliding rivets in the back? My books don't provide clear directions in my understanding.
3. What thickness of leather would be used to proved the lames to move most efficently?
Thanks for the help. I fell I am online with a good sorce.
When fight or making armor,
smash with care.
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W. Schütz
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 24 Jul, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Jared Bauder wrote: | If it helps, the time period I am specifically focussing on is 1480 + or - 10 years. The Higgins Museum said that the rivets on the front are connected directly to the leather strap and not through the lame underneath. This confuses me as the top of the lame beneth it would rest up against the rivet in the lame above. Are any of you familar with and could share some insite or how it would be useful?
Also three questions that has arisen from the picture you posted,
1. I thought that the floating elbows of that time period were laced to the ackton and not to the cannons? Was it also done as the pictures shows? I haven't run across anything to support it.
2. Can you describe the motion of the lames when they have sliding rivets in the back? My books don't provide clear directions in my understanding.
3. What thickness of leather would be used to proved the lames to move most efficently?
Thanks for the help. I fell I am online with a good sorce. |
Well i dont claim that this is the only authentic way of doing it, but this is one way:
every lame has five holes/rivets in them, one (ofter smaller) in the middle that is hidden from the outiside where the middle strap is attached, three holes that are "normal round-ones", two of which are attached to leather, and one that is filed long for the sliding rivet motion. The overlapping lames´ round-hole rivet is the underlaying lames´ sliding-rivet. The motion of the lames are that they expand and decompress when you move the arm as the sliding rivet provide the lames with the capacity to slide beneath eachother. This is hard to get right as it needs to slide not too long (that what the leather is for - not to get gaps) and it also need to be fluid enough. Its these qualities that you cant tell from looking at armour, you need to handle them.
The leather need to be pretty fine and flexible to allow for easy movement, maby 1,5mm of good leather. (If the leather is too stiff you can use olive-oil on it for a period leather-softner..;)
Also, the elbow can be attached to an arming doublet but this i find somewhat unstable and the elbow not moving insync with the cannons when not attached to them, but then again this is just my view. Often so-called "floating elbows", ie not jointed, where rivited and that shows that the cannons and elbow ofter where in one "piece".
Its late and im very tired so i hope i got all this right..it can be tricky to construct but its even trickier to try and describe..;/
Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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Jared Bauder
Location: Jerome, ID Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed 25 Jul, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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So do the elongated holes for the sliding rivets go vertically (l) or horizontaly (-)?? I thought they were verticaly as one of my picts shows. About how long are they, 5/8"? I use #5 rivets which have a 5/32" shank.
Thanks for the help I really appreciate it.
I was wondering if you could answer another question, to attach a visor to a sallet, is a bolt and nut used or a very large shanked rivet? I was planning on using a carriage bold and taking off the square base, annealing it, and using it as a rivet.
When fight or making armor,
smash with care.
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W. Schütz
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 26 Jul, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Jared Bauder wrote: | So do the elongated holes for the sliding rivets go vertically (l) or horizontaly (-)?? I thought they were verticaly as one of my picts shows. About how long are they, 5/8"? I use #5 rivets which have a 5/32" shank.
Thanks for the help I really appreciate it.
I was wondering if you could answer another question, to attach a visor to a sallet, is a bolt and nut used or a very large shanked rivet? I was planning on using a carriage bold and taking off the square base, annealing it, and using it as a rivet. |
Well a sliding rivit goes in the direction of where you want the lames to move. If you want your lames to slide up and down (which you prob will) then file them vertically. But it is hard to say how long you should file them, that depends on many factors like how much movement you want, how close the lames sit together etc etc. You cant have all this down on paper before you start, you need to practice alot of trail and error. Especially if its the first pauldron you create.
Id use a peened rivet that is later shaped to a nice form. You can also put a small peice of leather between then helmet and the visor-hole for less friction.
Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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This is a standard topic