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Bob Uhl




Location: Denver, Colo.
Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri 05 Mar, 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject: Sword Impacts and Motions?         Reply with quote

I was reading the article Sword Impacts and Motions; it sounds good, but I really don't have the expertise to know. What do the worthies of this fine forum think?

If it's legitimate, do many of the better manufacturers take this sort of thing into account now?
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

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Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Fri 05 Mar, 2004 3:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

I would suggest that you do a search both here and on Sword Forum. This article, and the topic, have been hashed over repeatedly.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Bob Uhl




Location: Denver, Colo.
Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat 06 Mar, 2004 11:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry--I searched on the article title and came up blank. I've only made it about 1/3 of the way through the archives so far--fun reading, all of it. Regards &c.
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Steve Fabert





Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Likes: 10 pages

Posts: 493

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2004 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob Uhl wrote:
Sorry--I searched on the article title and came up blank. I've only made it about 1/3 of the way through the archives so far--fun reading, all of it. Regards &c.


For some odd reason this article has two different names, "Sword Impacts and Motions", used on the shortcuts to its page, and "Sword Motions and Impacts", used on the article itself. You will find quite a bit if you search for "Sword Motions" rather than "Sword Impacts".
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Michael Pearce
Industry Professional



Location: Seattle, Wa.
Joined: 21 Feb 2004

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2004 10:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is safe to say that better makers take a great deal of information into account when designing a sword, and in the last few years performance-related considerations like edge geometry, node location (harmonic balance,) rigidity, distal taper etc. have become much more widely understood and applied.
Michael 'Tinker' Pearce
-------------
Then one night, as my car was going backwards through a cornfield at 90mph, I had an epiphany...
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John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2004 12:38 pm    Post subject: Proofing swords for performance         Reply with quote

Dear Bob,

European armies began contracting for mass produced swords and bayonets during the 19th Century. Before that time the procurement of weapons was the responsibility of the unit commanders, leading to a wide range of quality standards and misappropriation of funds by commanding officers.

It was during the Napoleonic Wars that design specifications, called Patterns, were issued and commanders no longer had the option of purchasing whatever kind of sword they could be talked into. Contracts with manufacturers in France, Germany and England for these mass produced swords were soon imitated in the rest of Europe. This practice forced the standardization of parts and fittings, scabbards, belt hangers and provided a uniform quality of performance in the field.

Standardization of style also helped in making it possible to identify units by the types of swords carried by its officers and men as well and looked better on parade. Officers were still required to purchase their own swords, they just purchased them from retailers, called Cutlers, who purchased them from the various manufacturers who followed the specifications of the Army Pattern. See Bezdek, Richard H. Swords and Swordmakers of England & Scotland. Paladin Press. Boulder, CO. 2003. Available from the author. theswordman@yahoo.com, mention my name when ordering.

Part of the contracting process was the establishment of standards for the blades as to strength and hardness. To verify this there were armory inspectors whose job it was to test swords, called Proofing, where the inspector would strike a wooden dummy with force to see if the blade would break. Several broken swords in a lot recieved from the contractor could mean a rejection of the whole lot.

Brian Robson in Swords of the British Army: The Regulation Patterns 1788 to 1914 discusses the subject briefly on page 276, Appendix 2. Markings on Swords:

...."Blades from the second half of the nineteenth century frequently, (in Wilkinson's case, invariably) have a circular or polyagonal, indented proof mark on the ricasso, often enclosing the maker's initial or symbol - an innovation which Henry Wilkinson claimed to have introduced in 1854 to certify the quality of the blade. In practice, these proof marks rapidly ceased to be real guarantees of quality (except perhaps in the case of Wilkinsons) and became simply a form of advertising, bearing the initial or symbol of the retailer, rather than the maker. There is a very useful list of such proof marks in May and Annis, Swords for Sea Service, Vol. II, pp338-341. (I have this book if anyone cares)

These marks are not found on eighteenth or early nineteenth century blades but some makers were fond of putting a written guarantee on their blades. - Thomas Gill, for example, inscribed some of his later blades 'Warranted Never to Fail', and some of his earlier blades are marked 'Warranted to Cut Iron'. Osborn and Gunby also marked some of their blades 'Warranted'."

English manufacturers also exported their swords to the United States during the Federal period, and not to be outdone, the French also exported swords, matching the "Warranted" inscription on the ricasso.

If you are interested in American Swords, Army inspectors die stamped their initials into the ricasso of the blades that were received from contractors before being issued to the troops. Bezdek covers this in detail in his American Swords and Swordmakers (two volumes). Paladin Press. Boulder, CO. 1994 & 1999. The names of inspectors are known and lists of them are provided.

It should be pointed out that only military swords were professionally proofed for quality, those manufactured for civilians, government bureaucrats, diplomats and courtiers were purchased at the buyer's risk. After the end of the 18th century they were no longer considered to be fighting weapons but were more like insignia of office. There were, of course, occasional duels and they came in handy in the event of a robbery. Remember that there were very few police around in the 18th and 19th Centuries and once out of the cities you had to rely on yourself for self defense. Everyone with wealth who traveled went armed or with retainers who were armed, both in Europe and the United States.

The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States should be interpreted to mean only the right to bear firearms but to bear edged weapons as well, to include swords, daggers and knives.

I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
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