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Jean Henri Chandler
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 Posted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Jean I donīt think sending Bill up against tourney winners is really fair. It skews things for the HEMA. Itīs like if we had you fight our superdukes. The dukes would win not because of technique but because they are just plain old better fighters. And that is all such duels really proves. You can win fights with bad techniques if your stronger and faster then your opponent. |
I think you misread me, I wasn't suggesting Bill should directly face the top HEMA people in a personal duel, I said he should enter an open tournament and see how he does. He would have the chance to fight a lot of ordinary HEMA fighters, and work his way up toward the higher echelons. If he made it to say the quarter finals I think people would be pretty impressed, and he would have bragging rights both for himself and for the SCA.
For that matter the SCA "superdukes" if they are really so great I really think one or two of them should enter a couple of HEMA tournaments. Like I said, there are annual open tournaments now held at pretty much every region of the US at some point during the year. Most of the tournaments even allow sword and buckler or sword and shield fighters in the longsword tournaments if you want to try one, sometimes people use them and win.
For that matter SCA "superdukes" should also enter open escrima or Jian tournaments they now have, I know there are annual ones now on the West Coast at least where there are plenty of SCA groups and they have similar qualifying rules to HEMA tournaments (i.e. I believe they accept all comers) and have pretty open rules. A few victories or high ranking finishes would be great PR for the SCA.
J
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 1:03 am Post subject: |
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"Superduke".... I can't get this out of my head: link
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The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jean!
Thanks for the images.
They are, however, of limited utility without citations. I can't speak for the last image, but the first looks like one of the South German illustrated 'Sigenot' manuscripts, which feature the popular knightly heroes Hildebrand and Dietrich. In that case, they're right out: there are numerous super-feats in those stories, along with giants, dwarves, and the like.
I'm not sure what's going on with the last image...maybe we can dig further into that one.
Thanks again for following up, but I don't think this is particularly good evidence; I surely find it unlikely anyone could cut all the way through a cased greave with a longsword.
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Tom Kinder
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| Posted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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hmmmm, looks like the guy on the left is an SCA fighter: hit him in the leg and he continues to fight from his knee. could almost call this evidence of SCA wound rules being historically accurate (if this was a usefull historical reference and if I wasn't typing this with tongue firmly in cheek). 
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom Kinder wrote: | | hmmmm, looks like the guy on the left is an SCA fighter: hit him in the leg and he continues to fight from his knee. could almost call this evidence of SCA wound rules being historically accurate (if this was a usefull historical reference and if I wasn't typing this with tongue firmly in cheek). |
Or more likely the literal interpretation from such imagery is what may have influenced SCA rules.
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Tom Kinder
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| Posted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I culd see that being the case too Nathan, but I couldn't pass the chance to poke at my brothers in armor. I am one of those silly SCA guys myself after all.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Jean, I think you mis-understand. My point is that how well you do in a duel isn't a good gauge of the validity of the system, it's just a good gauge of the individual fighter. And as such, it provides no proof of the validity of SCA technique...just that we in the SCA can produce competent fighters, who may or may not be using good techniques for an actual sword fight. A better way would be to meet up with HEMA people, do some slow work or drills and see what techniques bypass what defenses. This includes armor or no armor. Then spar for fun because well they are fun.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | Jean, I think you mis-understand. My point is that how well you do in a duel isn't a good gauge of the validity of the system, it's just a good gauge of the individual fighter. And as such, it provides no proof of the validity of SCA technique...just that we in the SCA can produce competent fighters, who may or may not be using good techniques for an actual sword fight. A better way would be to meet up with HEMA people, do some slow work or drills and see what techniques bypass what defenses. This includes armor or no armor. Then spar for fun because well they are fun. |
I'm sure that has been done plenty already.
I would say honestly, if at this point the people studying the historical manuals are not sufficiently past the level of technique of the people who are just making it up, then people should know that. It's not a matter of who produces good fighters, it's that the historical martial arts of the Renaissance give you an edge over what you learn just from trial and error, and the technique trumps the basic physical skills assuming the latter are anywhere near parity. Most of even the basic techniques are in fact pretty counter-intuitive. So if some SCA fighters can even make it to the upper tiers of a couple of HEMA tournaments I think it would be a shock to the HEMA / WMA community and would constitute proof that we are doing something very wrong and / or that the SCA was doing something very right (something we definitely hadn't anticipated)
J
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Most of even the basic techniques are in fact pretty counter-intuitive. |
Hmm. I'd have said that most of the basic techniques are straightforward, and not too hard to discover by sensible trial and error. They're not what comes instinctively to the untrained, so if you intended "non-instinctive" by "counter-intuitive", I'd agree with that sentiment.
(I'd say the same thing about SCA technique, too.)
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sun 28 Nov, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
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I must be stupid then because I'd been doing stick fighting for 10 years when I discovered the fechtbucher and I found most of the basic Lichtenauer guards (ochs, pflug, alber) and most of the mastercuts (zwerch, krumph, shielhau) to be completely counter-intuitive initially. Simple, once you understand them; wonderful once you grasp their use. But not something I think you easily pick up by trial and error (except over the course of several generations perhaps)
YMMV.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
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Alex Whitaker
Location: OAKLAND CALIFORNIA Joined: 10 Dec 2010
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri 10 Dec, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: Is SCA fighting similar to real fighting? |
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My answer to the question is yes if one has in fact used SCA fighting techniques in a real fight in which they have been attacked by someone who was intentionally trying to injure them.
I can say for myself that I was in fact attacked by someone who was more than twice my size and strength who fully intended to kill me. I used only SCA learned blows to defend myself against my attacker using a tire drop down tube which I managed to grab. My attacker knocked me to the ground and tried to kill me by bashing my head into the pavement. The only reason I'm still alive is that I knew how to throw an SCA wrap shot which took off part of his scalp. Out of nine blows I threw at my attacker all but one landed without being blocked. My attacker was armed with a switchblade but I took him down before he was able to deploy it.
I was charged with assault because of false statements made by dishonest persons and by bad police work. The charges were later dropped. It seems the person who attacked me was a body guard to a local drug dealer. To this day I have no idea why I was attacked but I know he went to the hospital after I knocked him out.
My opinion is that the people who say wrap shots won't work in real fights are not correct and also that techniques that may not be authentic to something can certainly be effective.
Based on my observations SCA rattan stick fighters tend to throw more snap shots than wraps so I would disagree that the wrap is an "SCA signature blow".
What is called a "wrap" shot has been used by zulu stick fighters for many years so I disagree that it is not a historical technique.
Incidentally I don't feel the SCA is the best place to learn combative skills involving sword or stick technique because of their apparent prejudice against empty handed techniques. In my opinion empty handed techniques should be included as part of learning how to use weapons.
At some SCA fighter practices where members of the armed services were showing up I have found that a certain amount of cross training was allowed however at other SCA practices I found myself being insulted for simply asking for reasons for their rule set or for even asking for clarification of certain rules.
Just for the record the SCA does not provide official reasons for any of their combative rules.
In my opinion the SCA rule set favors the use of shields and is in fact not that useful for trying to decide which fighter is more skilled than the next. I would also say that people who attend their practices for the reason of learning martial skills instead of competing for social status will probably not be welcome and so I do not recommend them as a place to learn martial skills.
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Nathan F
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| Posted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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hello everyone,
this is an interesting topic myself as a fighter bounce around from many different styles eastern western reenactment sca etc. while i have no experience in sca (as in ireland its very small and i know those involved) in Europe there is more of a tendency for steel reenactments. i think its the sound really that crowds like.
anyways i digress every style has its merits if we are asking is sca or hema combat the same as actual historic combat no its not. nobody i know of fights to the death its a different ball game. if anyone here has i would love to hear about it.
now im not trying to take away from what people do you all have great skill in your areas.
what i notice in both sca and hema is the lack of fear. your not scare of being hit if you do you can reset if your injured it may be bad but your unlikely to be killed.
anyways i like the post the fat thin fighter thing is not due to the two groups i know many large hema fighters and thin sca fighters and im sure some of you will see the thinner fighters in both groups are better mainly cause they are fitter though not all are.
we all practice different styles i know of some people in Europe who use live blades and have seen people take the field and fight with sharp longswords before people were hurt but not gravely. we all do different things each has its merit but none of us have to fight to the death nor i hope will we. an sca or hema fighter would probably have the same chance in a historic battle.
also there are how would i say some people in both communities who create a negative image but there are also those who do great work that effects us all and if that continues i dont really mind what people do.
now i would like comments from both communities on this video just to see what you think. i have seen a bit of this in eastern europe they have many styles of reenactment combat this being one of them,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=113LB33DLEU
regards
nathan
for here starts war carrion birds sing, and grey wolves howl
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sat 11 Dec, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Alex, nobody is doubting that a wrap against an unarmored opponent can be deadly...the contension is the usefulness of the shot vs somebody in a full norman knight kit. And yes SCA techniques are quite good with a stick...or a mace...but the use of them as a sword technique for somewhat questionable. It's not hitting the right area for armored and it's hitting way too hard for unarmored.
Also you live in oakland...so do you go to the rockridge fighter practice? Because the people there seem pretty interested in WMA there.
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Alex Whitaker
Location: OAKLAND CALIFORNIA Joined: 10 Dec 2010
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed 29 Dec, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | Alex, nobody is doubting that a wrap against an unarmored opponent can be deadly...the contension is the usefulness of the shot vs somebody in a full norman knight kit. And yes SCA techniques are quite good with a stick...or a mace...but the use of them as a sword technique for somewhat questionable. It's not hitting the right area for armored and it's hitting way too hard for unarmored.
Also you live in oakland...so do you go to the rockridge fighter practice? Because the people there seem pretty interested in WMA there. |
Hi Sir thanks for your reply.
I believe people should always train to hit hard because in a real fight they might find themselves having to make do with a make shift improvised weapon that has less effect than a real sword or axe such as just the halft of a weapon that may have broken off in combat.
An SCA type wrap shot can easily be redirected to land in the back of the neck in most cases. Against someone in a Norman type helmet their neck would still be broken even through the mail.
SCA fighters almost never target the neck even though it is a legal target area simply because they don't want to injure someone.
I would agree that many of the SCA blows that they call good would not work well against plate armor in general unless the type of sword was such that it would have a more percussive effect however all SCA fighters are considered to be wearing mail armor and not plate with the exception of the helmet. Plate armor by the way is not proof against edged weapons either since there is still percussive effect.
I'm not that sold on test cutting of grass mats since people are not made of grass. All of the test cutting I saw of grass matting is unscientific since it fails to account for the grain of the material and injury that would be from percussive effect. In other words you rotate the matting and you get different results. You measure percussive effect too and you get something else.
I don't agree however that medieval soldiers would have had the option to switch weapons on the fly based on the type of armor the person they were fighting was wearing. In other words in most cases a soldier fighting in most any war would fight with whatever they had at the time or with whatever they had been trained to use.
Yes I went to the Bart Practice and even sparred with them once. They seemed to have no interest in any form of martial art and they seemed to have great disrespect for people who do not use shields.
In my opinion the way they spar with their shields is largely a waste of time since they are simply disallowing most of the techniques that one would logically use against someone using one.
In my opinion they were also making up rules as they went and I found that disrespectful.
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Alex Whitaker
Location: OAKLAND CALIFORNIA Joined: 10 Dec 2010
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Jean Henri Chandler"] | Quote: |
For that matter the SCA "superdukes" if they are really so great I really think one or two of them should enter a couple of HEMA tournaments. Like I said, there are annual open tournaments now held at pretty much every region of the US at some point during the year. Most of the tournaments even allow sword and buckler or sword and shield fighters in the longsword tournaments if you want to try one, sometimes people use them and win.
For that matter SCA "superdukes" should also enter open escrima or Jian tournaments they now have, I know there are annual ones now on the West Coast at least where there are plenty of SCA groups and they have similar qualifying rules to HEMA tournaments (i.e. I believe they accept all comers) and have pretty open rules. A few victories or high ranking finishes would be great PR for the SCA.
J |
Thats funny because when I tried to compete with WMA people at their so called Arming sword tournament using wasters they canceled the contest. I elected not to enter their Kendo stick match since the weapon was obviously too light to represent what they were saying it did and besides they were also banning thrust to the face.
I sparred with an Kali Escrima teacher before after taking a few of his classes. I concluded that his technique was a step backward even from SCA technique because he didn't train to take into account progressively changing attack angles.
In other words he trained to evade attacks mostly with footwork however the attacks needed to be somewhat simple in order for the defensive footwork to be effective. Against the average person with a knife his ideas probably would work fine however.
An Escrima teacher on Youtube was arguing with me that a "major blow with a weapon" can simply be absorbed in such a way that he could tackle his opponent and then knock them out. In my opinion his idea was foolish since a solid shot to the head with most any kind of sword on an unarmored opponent would almost certainly kill or disable an opponent straight away. In fact the teacher I trained with made the same foolish claim so I decided to train with someone else.
I sparred also with an SCA " Duke" a few years back but concluded he was banning empty handed techniques without a valid reason and therefore was obstructing the idea of learning martial skills.
I don't support the idea that contest can or should be used to decide which person is the best at certain types of weapons. To me contest are just another opportunity to spar with someone and that's the only reason I participated in anything like that in the past. The bottom line is that rule sets always favor one person over the next.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Thu 06 Jan, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Humm that is unfortunate to hear Alex. Do you happen to know who you spoke to? I may have to have a small talk with them about interacting with new people.
On the case of mail armor...your underestimating how good that is against a sword. I tested it out on cored tatami so if there was enough purcussive force, the wood core should have broken...but it doesn't. Yes the knight could switch weapons on the fly and like I said, SCA techniques switched to a mace or hammer is quite effective. But the premise of their matches does not.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't agree however that medieval soldiers would have had the option to switch weapons on the fly based on the type of armor the person they were fighting was wearing. In other words in most cases a soldier fighting in most any war would fight with whatever they had at the time or with whatever they had been trained to use. |
I do not believe footmen marched for weeks with extra weapons and then entered battle, I believe horsemen did. In the SCA there are "usually" no rules against changing weapons mid match as long as your opponent is aware you have the weapon on your person and the weapon has passed inspection. A lot to Polearm guys keep a dagger and use it when closed in on. I have observed time and time again that people who try to pull a dagger in a singles match, while engaged, usually drop it or get killed in the transition.
| Quote: | They seemed to have no interest in any form of martial art and they seemed to have great disrespect for people who do not use shields.
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I have no doubt that you can find people in the SCA that are only interested in fighting for its sport aspect... some do it for spiritual reasons... others may like to dress up... some for its martial aspect... to each his own. Personally, I don't care why other people fight as long as they will stand in front of my and give me a chance to practice and improve my fighting ability. I have over time satisfied myself that the techniques I use would work with a real sword in real combat.
In the East Kingdom, in order to be considered for knighthood, a person must prove that they are proficient in all forms. The final round of Crown Tournaments, to become King, is usually a non-shield form. So in my kingdom, you can NOT rise to the highest levels unless you learn multiple forms. In melees, many people will go into the battle with a spear, dagger and polearm and decide which to use when the armies engage.
New fighters are encouraged to fight with shield first because it is "less painful" if 80% of your body is covered by a shield. In that case most of the shots will land either on the head or leg. The head is the most heavily armored part of the body and it is easy to put a little extra armor on the leg. It has been observed over the years that the dropout rate of new fighters is considerably less if they start off with sword and shield. For that reason, some people may not want to invest too much time training a new fighter who is fighting non-shield, who they suspect will quite after going home with deep bruises on their entire body.
Still there are plenty of Knights who are dedicated to polearm, greatsword, two-sword or something else. Most will advise their squires to master sword and shield first for the reasons I said. Many of the fighting principals learned with sword and shield also transfer over to other forms. Once sword and shield is mastered, other forms are learned in a shorter period of time... with considerable less bruises, then if they had learned those other forms first. Still there are are many who go the long route and that is their right if they wish to do so. If that is what you want to do then it is just a matter of finding the best person to train you in what you want to do. It is unfortunate if you live in an area where you have only one local practice and few choices of whom to get your training from.
When a fighter is new, he will receive a lot of different advice that might seem to steer him in different directions. Within six months, if he gets around and meets a number of knights, he should find one with whom he is most comfortable with and they can enter in a mentoring relationship. The Knight may take him as him "Man at Arms" (precursor to Squire). At that point, people will recognize that the new fighter is receiving competent guidance and limit their advice only in the direction that the Knight has set. So if the Knight says he is to be trained in Greatsword, that is what he shall be trained in without distraction.
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Christopher Punty
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| Posted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I've fought both with rebated steel and SCA armored combat. Personally I've found I prefer the SCA combat due to the level of intensity possible due to the armor and weapon standards. I like not having to constantly worry about not accidentally maiming my opponent. The 3 things I'd like to see change in the sca are, 1 let me hit people in the shins with my greatsword  2 get rid of the silly knee fighting. Personally I take legs as kills. Fighting with a greatsword as soon as I loose mobility due to a leg hit the fights as good as over exp vs a shield man. Also, in the SCA the assumption is that you are minor nobility (at least) and thus ransom-able, in real life if you'd taken a wound like that you'd be trying to impress on your opponent as quickly as possible your worth more as a prisoner than a corpse. The 3rd change would be to institute clear minimum appearance standards, theres plenty of people in the SCA with nice kits, but that idiot wearing 1/2 a plastic barrel standing next to him ruins it. SCA combat isnt combat anymore than any of the other systems or styles. Its not really "like real combat" unless your trying to kill your opponent, until then its all just a game, pick one with rules you can deal with.
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Scott Hrouda
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| Posted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Christopher, I concur with most of your points.
| Christopher Punty wrote: | | 1 let me hit people in the shins |
I agree heartily. | Quote: | | 2 get rid of the silly knee fighting |
I agree heartily. | Quote: | | 3rd change would be to institute clear minimum appearance standards |
This is a rather touchy subject in the SCA as can be seen in lengthy posts on other forums. The SCA Organizational Handbook section II.B states "Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at pre-17th century clothing." The SCA Marshal's Handbook section VI.A states "Special attention should be paid to appearance and the atmosphere of a medieval event should be maintained." That's it as far as a combat appearance directive. 
I currently have a kit that can easily pass the "looks good at 10' rule" which I'm trying to get to a "looks good at 10 cm" level. Almost a decade and a half ago I started in one of those pickle barrel armours with sneakers and a poorly fitting great helm. The balance, I believe, is to welcome and encourage newcomers without demanding a huge outlay in cash for armour right away. Some methods of increasing appearance over a specified time frame have been tossed about. I really have no opinion on the matter since I only worry about what I can control (my kit, my tent, my camp, etc.)
I would like to add grappling to the equation as well, but this is a whole other can of worms that is also hotly debated.
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Mike O'Hara
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| Posted: Fri 07 Jan, 2011 12:47 pm Post subject: Its the Quality of the hit |
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Hi folks
I've been reading this thread with interest and would like to emphasize the point a few of you have made already - its less about the fighting style that the quality of the player. I'll add another - and the quality of the hit.
Just to quickly clear a point - I've never fought SCA and I'm relatively new to WMA but have fought hard style/full contact Eastern martial arts for many years.
I've watched lot of the YouTube fights and few of the blows land cleanly - because your opponent rarely stands still 
(very wise).
In terms of WMA my instructor often has us in full kit for our period - I'm trying to recreate a gallowglass and he has a mix of plate/brigandine for footsoldier (he jousts). Yet I easily broke his thumb through plate gauntlets with a boken (wooden katana - we were testing out katana v longsword - actually boken v waster) because the shot was clean and precise.
The same applied to close combat - we are both experienced Eastern martial artists and he caught me a good, well controlled punch with a plate gauntlet through my Fiore helmet (Windrose) and it certainly rang my bells. He had a lot of time for any follow-up shot.
A number of other times we've hit one another glancing blows and the gambeson/brigandine easily defeated the blow and no impact was really even felt. In 'reality' we would have just fought through these until someone landed a good shot that incapacitated enough for the follow-ups hit(s) that killed/crippled.
I personally like 'no rule, just some control' style fighting. Partly because it suits my nature (make of that what you will!) but also because I suspect its as close as we can get to what MAY have happened without killing one another.
cheers
mike
MIke O'Hara
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
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This is a standard topic