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Igor Omeliantchuk




Location: Ukraine, Kirovograd
Joined: 27 Jul 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Two handed weapons for 14th century         Reply with quote

What two-handed weapons (except swords) can be used by the warrior (14th century) in grand bascinet, large plated (I don't know how it is called in English) brigantine? I'll be very thankful for the photos...
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First, the Grand Bascinet isn't appropriate for the 14th century; they wore several kinds of helmets, with the *bascinet* being one of the most common. The Grand Bascinet is a 15th-century helmet.

Second, the body armor to which you refer is often called a "Corrazina" by folks on the internet, but this term has only seen recent usage and I don't believe it's used by professional scholars. The term "globose-breasted coat of plates" is another way of referring to them. I will attach a drawing to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

Third, the 14th century was definitely a time of great experimentation in and development of two-handed weapons. There are two reasons for this: First is the development of the Age of the Transition (the transition from the Age of Mail to the Age of Plate) with the addition of so many pieces of plate to the knight's defenses that two-handed weapons became necessary to overcome the protection those additional defenses accorded. Second, a great deal of the serious fighting in the 14th century was done on foot rather than on horseback, thus freeing both of the knight's hands to wield a weapon. With the shield less necessary (it was an age of transition in many ways, however, so you still see shields along side two-handed weapons) because of the more developed armor and both hands free the knight was much more likely to use a two-handed weapon.

While the 14th century saw tremendous experimentation in the design of weapons (no surprise!), ultimately they seem to have preferred the "big three" forms that dominated the 15th century as well: Spears, pollaxes (both the hammer-head and bladed varieties--see below) and longswords (used both with two hands on the hilt and in halfswording--see below). Note that the form of the sword has changed radically from the two-handed "Swords of War" so popular at the end of the 13th and beginning of the 14th centuries; swords now tend to be needle-pointed (especially type XV and XVa) to better pierce the gaps between plates. I can't remember seeing any weapons that precisely look like the 15th-century halberd, but I don't have much interest in those and so don't specifically look for them; on the other hand, a wide variety of axes of various sorts including the Bardiche and other forms can often be seen in the iconography and presumably these fulfilled a similar role. Too, there are a wide variety of two-handed weapons in the "other" category, such as the "Goedendag".

I hope that helps.



 Attachment: 123.32 KB
battle of the spurs.jpg
A late-14thC representation of the Battle of the Spurs

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1380-90 Halfswording.jpg
Halfswording & pole weapons

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i1_0002a.jpg
Spears & pollaxes

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corazzina.crop.jpg
An example of the Globose-breasted Coat of Plates

Regards,
Hugh
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the term Corrazina is actually period term and is used in academia though perhaps not in english as it is an italian term. I think I have seen a french version as well but cannot remember if it is the Clos de Gales inventories or the King of Frances inventory. One display of a similar armour is labeled with the french term as well in the Museum of the Army in Paris. Both langauges are fairly close in spelling of the term. Some words/terms get directly taken and used in other languages while others do not. I have no idea why this one is not, though to be fair I think the terms used for Coat of Plates and Brigandines in English often are clouded in some confusion. The word itself literally means little corraza which is a torso protection. It has become used alot online referring to a specific type of armour like Hugh posted but I am not sure the period term refers specifically to it exactly. You find the same thing with little hauberk and other terms using a diminutive. I think in one of the italian accounts on the White Company describes some armed with Corrazinas.

Not much to add to the idea of two handed weapons to what Hugh said. There have been various depictions of shields following on with hand and a half swords and possibly some types used with pikes but once you are using two hands a shield becomes difficult I assume...

RPM
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2007 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
I think the term Corrazina is actually period term and is used in academia though perhaps not in english as it is an italian term. I think I have seen a french version as well but cannot remember if it is the Clos de Gales inventories or the King of Frances inventory. One display of a similar armour is labeled with the french term as well in the Museum of the Army in Paris. Both langauges are fairly close in spelling of the term. Some words/terms get directly taken and used in other languages while others do not. I have no idea why this one is not, though to be fair I think the terms used for Coat of Plates and Brigandines in English often are clouded in some confusion. The word itself literally means little corraza which is a torso protection. It has become used alot online referring to a specific type of armour like Hugh posted but I am not sure the period term refers specifically to it exactly. You find the same thing with little hauberk and other terms using a diminutive. I think in one of the italian accounts on the White Company describes some armed with Corrazinas.


Actually, you said what I was trying to say better than I did: The term is historical, but in period referred to a broader range of gear than the way it's used on the internet today.

Quote:
Not much to add to the idea of two handed weapons to what Hugh said. There have been various depictions of shields following on with hand and a half swords and possibly some types used with pikes but once you are using two hands a shield becomes difficult I assume...


The only two-handed weapon I can document that was used with a shield is the spear, and in that case the arm straps seem to have been used in conjunction with the guige to hold the shield while the left hand was free to wield the spear.

Regards,
Hugh
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2007 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Corazzina: little cuirass.

Corazza: cuirass.

Italian. Corrazzina should be the ancient spelling but I'm not sure, quite likely.

I think the origin is the french cuir (leather).
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John Cooksey




Location: NW Ark
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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:
Corazzina: little cuirass.

Corazza: cuirass.

Italian. Corrazzina should be the ancient spelling but I'm not sure, quite likely.

I think the origin is the french cuir (leather).



Why the french "cuir" instead of the Latin "corium" or "corius"?

I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

France was the leader of a lot of the armour development in the middle ages.

M.

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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's interesting to see how the contemporary use of the term "corazzina" seems to perfectly match that of the English (or Anglicized French) term "corselet."
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a feeling the italian word predates the french one or at the least are concurrent. They both likely are based on the latin either way. Cuir makes a very similar sound in french to the cor in latin.

I figure part of the reason corslet and corazza describe the same thing often now is the vagueness that really involves the words. They really just mean torso protection. That could apply to a pletora of things. for that matter corset- as in womens clothing likely also evolves from the same root.

RPM
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Wed 30 May, 2007 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
I figure part of the reason corslet and corazza describe the same thing often now is the vagueness that really involves the words. They really just mean torso protection. That could apply to a pletora of things. for that matter corset- as in womens clothing likely also evolves from the same root.


That's why I don't use the term as it is currently being applied.

Regards,
Hugh
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