Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Sword and pavice Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Tomas Z.





Joined: 22 May 2007

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 7:47 am    Post subject: Sword and pavice         Reply with quote

I was wondering, was it common in 15th century to have a smaller pavice in one hand and a hand-and-half sword in the other? I think I've seen it somewhere? Do you have any pictures depicting this?

In case it's ok, where do you buy pavices?
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,003

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as I know, "pavise" usually refers to the large shields used by archers and crossbowmen as portable cover. These were propped up or held by a second guy, and would entirely cover a man kneeling down to reload or take aim.
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Justin Pasternak




Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts
Joined: 17 Sep 2006

Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Mikko. You must be referring to a "buckler" or "targe", because these were small one-handed shields that could be used in conjunction with a sword.
View user's profile Send private message
Tomas Z.





Joined: 22 May 2007

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok, I found this. Is this not a pavise?

http://pics.myArmoury.com/view.html?pavise01b.jpg
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,003

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tomas Z. wrote:
Ok, I found this. Is this not a pavise?

http://pics.myArmoury.com/view.html?pavise01b.jpg

Actually, I think those are basically normal shields, long-ish heaters with concave outer surfaces (presumably to aid in trapping and binding the opponent's weapon; similar designs can be seen on bucklers). A pavise would have a raised channel in the middle for the prop, and the shield of the man on the right does look remarkably like that, but I think that's simply a trick of the slightly flawed perspective.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are two different concepts of a pavise:

1) The large shields that were stuck in the ground or otherwise held up. These normally had a prominent keel on the center line.

2) Any size of shield with a keel like the above definition. This category includes shields used by the Rus in the 15th century, as well as the shields you found a picture of.

So if you use definition two then the answer to your question is clearly yes.
I do not know of any work on techniques that may be specific to that type of shield.

-Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

going along with what steven just mentioned in the medievalperiod text the original terms used for pavaise do include smaller shields that are hand held. They also include larger ones that you can hide behind. Terminology is fairly fluid in the period depending on the writer and region in question. There are a few 15th century illustrations that show men with full armour fighting with them and a sword so I'd say you're good to go.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,003

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I stand corrected! Oh well, learning is always fun. Happy

This raises the question, would this smaller kind of pavise have a center grip behind the "keel" like a buckler, or grips and straps like a heater?

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Marton Pap




Location: Hungary
Joined: 16 Jan 2006

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 1:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi!
About the grips, here is a picture from Hans Burgkmair:
http://search.famsf.org:8080/view.shtml?keywo...cord=56029
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,003

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks!

Hmm, so based on that picture the answer would be "either", a lot like early teardrop shields. Interesting.

No guiges, though, I note...

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it is more a modern use of the term that gives the impression that only the larger ones are called pavaises so. Not wrong as much as familar with current work on the matter. There is no harm in using it so as long as one has a term to define the other smaller types. I have seen Target used to represent them but then you have a huge grey area of the ones inbetween door size and pocket size.

In some of the hussite artwork from Osprey's Hussite book show both types being employed. Both are show used by misslemen and the smaller used in melee fighting as well.

There are a few accounts that mention pavaises used at agincourt by the main body of men at arms. More than likely the smaller mobile ones but the passage indicates use agaist arrows. I often wondered if it would be discarded or places on a guige strap at the back once the man at arms engaged or used in the hand to hand fighting. Sadly we might never know but I have a feeling it was for both missiles and melee but perhaps in only certain situations.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What was the very tall dueling shield from the 15th - 16th century? (Might be off on the dates) I've seen drawings; apparently two people had one each and they fenced around it somehow.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Check out some of the pictures on page 4 of this thread:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2711&start=60

Especially this one:
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,003

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm. Again, it seems one is center-gripped and one strapped to the arm, and neither has guige straps (unless the artist just left them out). Makes me wonder if they actually used a grip configuration that would allow both kinds of gripping, again somewhat like some early teardrops or late round Viking shields...
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,208

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Sword and pavice         Reply with quote

Tomas Z. wrote:
I was wondering, was it common in 15th century to have a smaller pavice in one hand and a hand-and-half sword in the other? I think I've seen it somewhere? Do you have any pictures depicting this?

In case it's ok, where do you buy pavices?



Going right back to the top before the question of what a pavise could be defined as, I wonder if terminology is put aside, the real question was about the use of a shield or buckler paired with a longsword ?

If this wasn't the real point of the question I'm still curious about longsword + buckler versus the usual one handed sword + buckler.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On the absence of guige straps: It's been my observation that Medieval artists frequently left out guige straps. I've seen paintings where the one assumes there is a guige because no other means of holding up the shield is apparent.

I suspect the same is true of helmet straps. Big Grin

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2007 10:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The German duelling shields of the 15th century are very pavise like. They're shown being used with longswords. The fight is principally about maneuvering with the shield, with the sword held back to exploit gaps, so a longsword is quite wieldy in this circumstance. For an analysis of the style, please see my paper in Spada and the follow up in Spada II.

Cheers
Stephen



 Attachment: 55.44 KB
Fig 01.jpg


Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Sun 27 May, 2007 12:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Sun 27 May, 2007 12:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many books refer to the hand pavise, such as the following example of Matthias Corvinus, King of Hungary (1443-90; King, 1458)



Also check out this woodcut:


.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tomas Z.





Joined: 22 May 2007

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun 27 May, 2007 12:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice! Looks something I could get. So...do you know where to get it?! Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Sword and pavice
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum