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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2007 6:13 pm    Post subject: Interesting "Great" Bascinet         Reply with quote

I ran across this bascinet the other day and found it fascinating. It looks like a fairly typical bascinet but instead of an aventail of mail and/or padding, it is one piece (except the visor) formed to cover the head and neck, taking the place of the aventail.

It's dated to c. 1400 and resides in the Ducal Palace in Venice.

I'm not sure I've seen anything like it before. I've seen great bascinets with the skull and neck protection made of multiple plates, but never anything quite like this. It's an impressive piece of work.

Does anyone know of any others like this or any other pictures of this helm?

By the way, this one is published in 2,500 years of European helmets, 800 B.C.-1700 A.D by Howard M Curtis and Ritter-Rüstungen--Der Eiserne Gast: Ein Mittelalterliches Phänomen by Dario Lanzardo.



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Jonathon Janusz





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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I couldn't pull a direct link to the picture, and I wouldn't want to copy it without permission, but if you go to www.arador.com, click on their gallery, and go to the collection from the Doge's Palace by Eli Steenput.

I thought this great bascinet would make an awesome early period jousting helm ever since I saw this photo. Thanks for finding a far better photo of it! Happy
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2007 7:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Impressive work but I can't help wonder about an opponent just side-stepping: " Where did he go? Where did he GO !!!! Razz Laughing Out Loud

I imagine that the head would be able to move from side to side inside the helm even if the helm didn't have any mobility.

Didn't some of these great helms have the skull part on a ring so that the head part could rotate on the shoulder part ?

In any case really nice to look at but I would hate having to retie my shoelaces with it on. ( Couldn't resist a second joke. )

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Didn't some of these great helms have the skull part on a ring so that the head part could rotate on the shoulder part ?


There are later headpieces where the whole helm rotates on the gorget (the helm closes over the rim of the gorget and ran rotate like a gun turret) but that's a different thing entirely. I'm assuming by "great helms" you don't mean true great helms. I don't think I've seen any great bascinets that feature that, though.

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathon Janusz wrote:
I couldn't pull a direct link to the picture, and I wouldn't want to copy it without permission, but if you go to www.arador.com, click on their gallery, and go to the collection from the Doge's Palace by Eli Steenput.

I thought this great bascinet would make an awesome early period jousting helm ever since I saw this photo. Thanks for finding a far better photo of it! Happy


Thanks for the link. It's good to see other angles. The Lanzardo book has a pic, too, but they've cropped off most of the integral aventail.

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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The thinking on this one is that it is a very early piece made strictly for mounted jousting, the idea (like all great bacinets) is to minimize the possibility of trauma to the head and neck, transferring shock to the shoulders. Seen in profile, however, the visor is sitting at the wrong angle, and is most likely associated.
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Last edited by James Arlen Gillaspie on Sat 05 May, 2007 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Didn't some of these great helms have the skull part on a ring so that the head part could rotate on the shoulder part ?


There are later headpieces where the whole helm rotates on the gorget (the helm closes over the rim of the gorget and ran rotate like a gun turret) but that's a different thing entirely. I'm assuming by "great helms" you don't mean true great helms. I don't think I've seen any great bascinets that feature that, though.


Right I should have said great bascinet and not great helm which would be earlier barrel helms for example or more loosely later great helms dedicate to the joust and not for war. ( could still be wrong in detail ? )

Just going from memory I think I may have confused the later close helms rotating on a ring and some late use of the bascinet combined with a wide and high gorget I saw in an Osprey book: " Byzantine armies AD 1118-1461, plate E, figure 3 Serbian Knight, 15th century. In that figure there is a combination or older looking styles of armour combined with 15th century elements: The knight has a hounskull bascinet that fits inside a high and wide gorget of a shape resembling an aventaille. The Serbian knight also carries a medium sized kite shield of an old style with a rounded upper rim.

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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Sun 06 May, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
The thinking on this one is that it is a very early piece made strictly for mounted jousting, the idea (like all great bacinets) is to minimize the possibility of trauma to the head and neck, transferring shock to the shoulders. Seen in profile, however, the visor is sitting at the wrong angle, and is most likely associated.


Jamie,

Is there an external method to determine whether a particular hounskull visor is appropriate to a bascinet? I mean without trying the thing on to see if anything is visible? Is there some way by drawing a reference line on a side view or something like that? How can one tell a "right" match from a "wrong" one? On some existing pieces, its obvious because the occularia is at nose level, et cetera. On others, it isn't so clear. Also wouldn't internal suspension come into the equation?

Always looking for better information.... Cool
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 06 May, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel,
That's a great question. I've looked at a number of bascinets and asked myself how someone with a normal-shaped skull could see out of them. I think there are a number of these associations.

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James Barker




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PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe a proper examination of this piece has shown it is pieces together from several helms and not a configuration found in the 14th/15th century. This helmet pops up on armor related boards every now and again.
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Lawrence Parramore





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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Kel,
That's a great question. I've looked at a number of bascinets and asked myself how someone with a normal-shaped skull could see out of them. I think there are a number of these associations.


Hope this answers your question http://www.austmus.gov.au/bodyart/shaping/headbinding.htm and this http://www.cronaca.com/archives/005103.html they did not necessarily have a normal shaped skull, it changed from region to region, one areas soldiers wouldn't be able to use anothers helmets.

Regards Lawrence
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lawrence Parramore wrote:
Hope this answers your question http://www.austmus.gov.au/bodyart/shaping/headbinding.htm and this http://www.cronaca.com/archives/005103.html they did not necessarily have a normal shaped skull, it changed from region to region, one areas soldiers wouldn't be able to use anothers helmets.

Regards Lawrence


Lawrence,
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I don't think the peaked shape of the bascinet was indicative of the shape of the skull of the wearer. Happy

My point was that some a number of bascinets in museums have been paired with visors not made for them (associated). The occularia, etc. on these associated visors don't line up where they're supposed to, making it impossible for normally proportioned people to see out of them.

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Lawrence Parramore





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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree that there are many pieces that are associated for a variety of reasons and some were done in the working life of the pieces, but also people have naturally differing shapes, very wide very narrow , very big to very small. The 'houndskull' Bascinet in the Royal Armouries for example ( my pics were too big to put on this site?) of which I have a copy and molds taken from the original, isn't designed for a normal head in my opinion, I can put it on and see clearly but there is no room for padding at the front or back but plenty at the sides and I don't regard myself as having an abnormally shaped head Laughing Out Loud However the back of this helmet is very flat, I would have liked to have put profile pics onto show what I mean.

Regards Lawrence
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lawrence Parramore wrote:
...( my pics were too big to put on this site?)...I would have liked to have put profile pics onto show what I mean.

Regards Lawrence


Try uploading them to imageshack or photobucket then posting a link. Happy
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hisham Gaballa wrote:
Lawrence Parramore wrote:
...( my pics were too big to put on this site?)...I would have liked to have put profile pics onto show what I mean.

Regards Lawrence


Try uploading them to imageshack or photobucket then posting a link. Happy


Or simply size them down as most people do. Please see here for more info on attaching pictures: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/faq.php?mode=attach

I encourage everyone to browse through our Info Section as its pages answer a host of questions.

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Great Bascinet         Reply with quote

Hi Chad.........this helm is by no means unique. I am going to see an associate today and I will ask about them ( its quicker ) I have attached a pic of one from the UK but I think I have others too. "Armourers Workshop" has even reproduced it ! I have to dash right now, but I thought Id just throw this one into the pile for discussion and Ill try and add some factual input when I get back.

Cheers !



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Great Basinet. English, c.1350..jpg


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Jonathon Janusz





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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Merv, thanks for keeping this thread alive. Happy

If you have any other examples similar to these, please post. I'm slowly hoarding 14th century jousting armour images.

On the photo you posted, I notice pairs of holes spaced around the rim of the helm; lacing for a liner or something else?
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Merv,
Thanks for that interesting picture. What impresses me most about the one I originally posted is that it's all one piece (apart from the visor).

I'd love to hear more about the one you posted, too.

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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 2:24 am    Post subject: Great Bascinet         Reply with quote

Hi Chad, Jonathan, everyone.........What a huge day.......managed to ask my esteemed colleague and Jouster friend who assured me, much to my suprise, that they were indeed worn in battle !! As I had to shft a 10 foot long trailer load of tools and equipment, I wasnt able to stay chatting for too long, but I will ask him plus our group leader who is an historical author, if you like, and get some references ( hopefully). He told me that theres another one in a museum that started life as a regular bascinet and was later modified into 'greatness' ! Big Grin This, I will also ask about !
Re the pic I posted, I am very sure that the lacing holes are to secure a padded lining ( IMHO)
I have to dash right now ( again) but I will dig up some more info & images.
Cheers for now.

Merv Cannon

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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 8:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lawrence Parramore wrote:
Chad Arnow wrote:
Kel,
That's a great question. I've looked at a number of bascinets and asked myself how someone with a normal-shaped skull could see out of them. I think there are a number of these associations.


Hope this answers your question http://www.austmus.gov.au/bodyart/shaping/headbinding.htm and this http://www.cronaca.com/archives/005103.html they did not necessarily have a normal shaped skull, it changed from region to region, one areas soldiers wouldn't be able to use anothers helmets.

Regards Lawrence


I assure you that venetians didn't practice head skull modifications.

BTW, northern italian crania seems to be on the large size, but I'm not an expert on such matters.

For sure mine wouldn't be described as pointed ...
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