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Roger Hooper
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 Posted: Wed 15 Jul, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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The weapons were found near, but outside of the coffin - sword on one side, axe on the other. I wonder if that is significant. It could be that this guy was a Christian AND a pagan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but It wasn't unusual for a Norseman at this time to have a foot in both camps.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Thu 16 Jul, 2015 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| T. Kew wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | How do we know the burial is pagan? The other grave mentioned is obviously christian as it says among other things "God is one". |
Well, for a start it includes weapons.
Burying someone with armaments, at that point in Norwegian history, is basically a way to directly say that you are burying them as a pagan. Weapon burials in an unambiguously Christian context would be incredibly unusual - I genuinely can't think of any.
Other graves in the vague area being potentially Christian doesn't speak one way or the other. This is during the period of Christianisation, and individual families or persons would hold varying religious beliefs.
There are other indicators that are also relevant, like the orientation of the body. Does anyone have a copy of the full archaeological report? |
Yeah very true.
Having grave goods in general is what separates pagan and christian burials. Also being buried in a mound (or Kurgan as they are called in Russia) including a grave chamber.
So finding this guy in a burial chamber with weapons as grave goods is as ultra pagan as it gets......
Thats why the sword is likely an indicator of the religion of his Chieftain/King - not the warrior himself - as he would have received the sword as a gift as it was common Germanic usage.
The orientation of the body in a pagan burial can wary all over the place and be east-west as in a Christian burial, so it is not in itself an indicator. You have many pagan graves with east-west orientation going back in time (which in fact is Pagan. A real Christian should be burial according to the direction of Jerusalem, not the pagan idea of the sun in the east).
In Scandinavia viking age you have Inhumation graves and cremation graves. In no mounds, small mounds, big mounds, colossal mounds. You have ship-graves made of stone setting, people buried in actual ships etc etc
The rule is basically that every pagan burial is different - probably to show the INDIVIDUALISM of the deceased.
Christian burials strive to be similar. No grave goods, same direction, not in mounds, no special burial chambers.
A hypothesis is that the graves were sometimes orientated towards to major roads. Rune stones were also erected by major roads, at bridges and other prominent sports where they could be seen as Testament of that person and that the remaining family claimed land by raising them on these locations.
Even more complicated is the interesting idea that the body was buried in direction depending of the time of the year! So the orientation of the body is one way when buried in wintertime, another in summertime.
A Jewish merchant from Spain Ibrahim ibn Yacoub al-Tartushi (of Tortosa) visited Hedeby in Denmark and he said they worshiped Sirius (The Dog Star). Maybe some Scandinavian bodies were buried towards the direction of Sirius......
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Thu 16 Jul, 2015 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | | The weapons were found near, but outside of the coffin - sword on one side, axe on the other. I wonder if that is significant. It could be that this guy was a Christian AND a pagan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but It wasn't unusual for a Norseman at this time to have a foot in both camps. |
You had many Scandinavian, that found it lucrative to get Primesigned [primo signatio] as you got free gifts! It didn't make you a Christian, but you accepted the sign of the cross. You were then regarded as acceptable to both pagans and christian, which were important for traders. So you could travel from place to place getting multiple primesignings.
In Scandinavia you had to have the same religion as your King and Chieftain. So if your King converted to Christianity you had to convert as well to remain part of his "Hird".
Harald Bluetooth made the Danes Christians (as he states on his great Runestone at Jelling) because HE had converted (doesn't matter if you got baptized personally, as King Harald made all Danes Christans by HIS conversion alone).
What is interested in this Norwegian example is the date ~1030 AD.
That is the death of the Christian Norwegian "King Olaf II Haraldsson the Holy" at the Battle of Stiklestad 1030 against freedom fighters of Kingdoms, that didn't want to be consumed by Christian "Norway". The pagan Thorir Hund (Chief in Hålogaland) was one of them and these anti-Norwegian "Norwegians" sided with Canute the Great.
If this guy was part of King Olaf's Hird he would nominally have to be Christian and could have received the sword as a gift from the King. When the King had died, that obligation was over - he and his family was no longer bound as all connections in Viking Age time were personal - and he could be buried as a pagan in what HE believed in (not his King's faith).
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 12 Oct, 2015 6:20 am Post subject: One of Henry V ships |
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Here is a BBC article on the possible find of another one of Henry's ships from the hundred years war.
Henry V's ship Holigost
There are few details and sounds like they need to do some excavation prior to any absolute id, but still an interesting find.
Craig
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Tomek Kowmal Ciupinski
Industry Professional
Location: Lodz, Poland Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Mon 12 Oct, 2015 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Sword found a lover of history when searching in and around Jerzwałdu.
According to archaeologists, this may be - unique in the lands of ancient Balts - type sword Spath from the late Roman period. The discovery already went to the Museum of Warmia and Mazury in Olsztyn.
During the archaeological excavations carried out so far between lower Vistula and the Niemen, it was discovered only a few copies of such weapons - including the cemetery kurhanowym the Suwalki and the tomb of a warrior on the peninsula of Sambia.
When you conducted this summer by the Museum of Warmia and Mazury
k archaeological expedition. Jerzwałdu excavated nearly a thousand objects,
including several shoes, or sword scabbard fittings - such a large collection of
type has so far no museum in Poland. They also found the grave of incinerator
X-XI century. Archaeologists speculate that discovered the unique world
Western Balts trade settlement associated with the legendary Truso - Viking
port, which existed from the eighth to the eleventh century at the mouth of the Vistula.
Article by
http://www.tvn24.pl/pomorze,42/milosnik-histo...84470.html
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Mon 12 Oct, 2015 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: One of Henry V ships |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | Here is a BBC article on the possible find of another one of Henry's ships from the hundred years war.
Henry V's ship Holigost
There are few details and sounds like they need to do some excavation prior to any absolute id, but still an interesting find.
Craig |
Oh that's great!
I feel there is still a lot of medieval naval history left to cover by historians. Which ship was the other one they found, I heard something about his flagship the Grace Dieu but I never saw the wreck or a reconstruction of it.
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 21 Oct, 2015 9:12 pm Post subject: Viking Sword Blade |
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Here is an article about a good day hiking 
Viking Sword Found
Craig
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Roger Hooper
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 3:03 pm Post subject: Gold and Ivory hilt |
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Wow this is great stuff. I can not wait to see the sword out of the ground. The hilt pic is very intriguing and a gold and ivory detail will look very cool.
Craig
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a photo of that bronze sword hilt from the Pylos grave. It looks like a Type G Horn sword.
 Attachment: 98.78 KB
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 09 Dec, 2015 6:42 am Post subject: Scottish Bronze age weapons found. |
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Some nice bronze age items recovered from an area that was probably a freshwater loch.
Broken Swords and Spears
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Wed 09 Dec, 2015 9:14 am Post subject: |
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The Battlefield of Kessel has been discovered.
In 55 BC. Caesar attacked two German tribes (Usipetes and the Tencteri) and subsequently 'genocided' them. Among the finds were swords, spearheads and a helmet. No pictures have been realized so far.
http://www.vu.nl/nl/nieuws-agenda/nieuws/2015...gebied.asp
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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J. Nicolaysen
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Roger Hooper
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J. Nicolaysen
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| Posted: Tue 22 Dec, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Ugh. Sorry to sully a great thread with such a terrible link. I have been seeing this a lot in my FB thread. Guess it thinks I like swords or something. 
Anyhow, I thought there might be an outside chance it was some 19th century thing, but wow, I had no idea it was at Walmart.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Sat 02 Jan, 2016 6:00 am Post subject: |
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For those interested and able to read Danish.
Top 10 Danish archaeological finds from 2015.
Source: http://www.kulturstyrelsen.dk/kulturarv/forti...fund-2015/
Resume:
1) Late Neolithic long house from Vinge: 45,5 m long! [~2000 BC]
2) Earliest found Danish vine grapes from the Viking Age at the Tissø complex.
Had Tissø its own wine production as the climate was quite warm back then?!
3) Lead amulet from the middle ages (1250-1350) calling on the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and all the Saints to protect God's servant Margareta against elf-men (!) elf-women (!) and demons from harming her eyes and other limbs.
4) Coastal dwelling at Orehoved, that was suddenly flooded by increasing sea level ~6000 BC. Means that tons of daily objects were hastily abandoned, like a half-finished drilling through a big lump of amber (see picture).
5) Perfect Frankish wine jar found in Ribe from 700's AD. [picture of it in situ]
6) Chapel of King Svend III Grathe [he was killed in the battle of Grathe Hede in 1157].
7) Viking silver treasure put down in the ground 950-1000 AD at Lille Karleby.
Besides the objects shown in the pictures it also contained a jewelry set comprised of 300 pieces of glass beads, amber, quartz and silver; 53 brooches of bronze or silver and 18 coins (Islamic and Western).
8) Preserved fields close to Hirtshals covered by sand in around 1700 AD and thus hasn't been touched since. So preserved plow marks and ditches can be observed.
Use of the area for farming starts from the Iron age.
9) Complete Iron Age society found at Skødstrup from around the Birth of Christ. It includes a burial-ground, a sacrificial bog, a "row-village" with paved central road (!) and spread out farms. Many dog-sacrifices have taken place (se picture) in the bog, but a woman in her 20's were also found.
This is the most outstanding find this year and the area will continue to be researched.
10) Bronze Axes from Boest. I created a thread about them here
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=32061&highlight=
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 05 Jan, 2016 11:26 am Post subject: Bronze Age thrusting blade |
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First of, greatlist Neil thanks for sharing there are some wonderful things on that list.
Here is one I just came across and highlights one of my pet peeves about classifications of things. This is described as a bronze age "rapier" which I know is a hold over from the 19th C. experts assigning the concept to the bronze sword blades found but today I would argue that calling it a bronze thrusting sword or even dagger would be more enlightening then confusing it to the rapier term which carries the connotation of a complex hilt with it. I realize I am probably just being picky, but there is so much poor info in the big wide sword world, that I hate to contribute to confusion when terms like this get used, even if the academics of the past are the source.
Sword found in Lanarkshire
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2016 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Bronze Age thrusting blade |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | First of, greatlist Neil thanks for sharing there are some wonderful things on that list.
Here is one I just came across and highlights one of my pet peeves about classifications of things. This is described as a bronze age "rapier" which I know is a hold over from the 19th C. experts assigning the concept to the bronze sword blades found but today I would argue that calling it a bronze thrusting sword or even dagger would be more enlightening then confusing it to the rapier term which carries the connotation of a complex hilt with it. I realize I am probably just being picky, but there is so much poor info in the big wide sword world, that I hate to contribute to confusion when terms like this get used, even if the academics of the past are the source.
Sword found in Lanarkshire |
You are welcome
Also totally agree that this outdated "rapier" term for these bronze age weapons could cause confusion.
"Thrusting-" or "stabbing sword" is a much more accurate description of these weapons.
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This is a