[Jean Thibodeau]

Been looking / thinking about getting a nice new pole arm and I decided to go for a custom job by A & A.

Just waiting for a confirmation from Craig as he already gave me a quote on it: So the order is 99.99 % confirmed.

I assume that Craig may suggest changes if needed to make the design reasonnably historical, although my priority is in the handling qualities. Althought a type of spear, I see this one close to a halberd in function with axe like cutting ability combined with a short but heavy armour piercing point.

[Alex Oster]

Ya know, my first thought was: WTF!?! But since you seem to have a name for it; what was the basis for the project idea? Did you see an original somewhere? I love pole arms of all types, so this naturally caught my eye as neat-O. Kind of partisan-ish.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Alex;

I have a picture of one of these in a book: All hand drawn illustrations, very nice pictures, a bit like an Osprey book in quality of illustration and research. I haven't seen a photograph of one like this but the design is interesting.

" Langue de Boeuf " or Oxtunges seem to vary in shape depending on which Author / Book you read: The partisan or any large bladed pole arm resembling a sword on a pole or oversized triangular spearhead seem to be all called " Langue de Boeuf " The book I have seems to group this style with " Fauchard " type weapons.

My first impression of this one was ugly but logical design: As with an halberd you have the axe like cutting but in a symmetrical package, no specialized hooks like a bill and it could work like a two headed axe. ( I like it now or I wouldn't have one made: It sort of grew on me. )

That would take care of the more lightly armoured opponents and that narrow top spike gives you a good knight " Can opener "

Oh, my source is in French and I've had it for years: LE COSTUME, L'ARMURE ET LES ARMES AU TEMPS DE LA CHEVALERIE, du huitième au quinzième siècle. By Liliane et Fred Funcken, © CASTERMAN 1977 ISBN 2-203-14318-5
pages 89 and117 No idea if an English version exists or even if it is still in print.

In any case, nobody makes these that I know of, so since it looks like a wicked weapon I decided to have it made.
The A & A Italian Bill was my other option but since its a strandard model I can always get one later.

[Edward Hitchens]

That's pretty neat Jean. Very cool! About those surfaces just below the point: are they sharp so you could sort of use it like a double-sided axe?

I'm sure we'd all love to see some pics of the finished product.
-Ted

[Daniel Staberg]

I have the Funcken book in German, it was a very good source for it's time but it is a bit dated by todays standard IMHO and contain several "strange" interpretations of polearms. I've never been happy with the langue de beuf as shown nor understodd why they have put it the hands of the Burgundian coustilier
It simply doens't "feel" right to me and I've never seen a photo of a preserved example which looks like that. But i can easily be wrong about the shape not working.
Still it would be very interestign to see if this particular design works in real life, there are faar to few good polearms on the market today.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Edward;

Yes, the two parallel edges of the big rectangular shape are meant to be sharp and work like a double bladed axe.
After discussion with Craig the narrow point will be half way between a knife blade and a thick diamond section: May become thicker where the point starts in the same way that the spike on his Italian Bill is a very square diamond section and is thicker than the main blade below it.

Daniel;

Well as a polearm I think it would work, how historically accurate it may be I'm not sure.

I have found another source for this one in an Osprey MEN-AT ARMS book: FRENCH ARMIES OF THE HUNDRED YEARS WAR, plate G 3 from the book description ( Main sources: Helmets and Langue de Boeuf, French 15 cent., Musée de l'Armée, Paris; Crucifixion, panel painted by Jan van Eyck, Flemish c. 1425 - 30, Metropolitan Museum of art, New York )

Now the one in the plate looks more spear like in weight although of the same general shape as my design.
Mine is more of a halberd heavier version and may not be supported by any existing surviving piece.

I guess my priority is the design itself and my interpretation of it rather that historical accuracy: If it is historically based I would view that as a bonus.

So even if it turns out to be a fantasy piece that's O.K. with me as I am now curious about how it will turn out.
At least Craig at A & A finds it an interesting project and seemed to think it was at least credible as a historical design.

Now finding photographs of surviving pieces would be interesting in any case.

[Jeremiah Swanger]

[Felix Wang]

Very intriguing design, please do let us know how it handles. I was under the impression that a langue de boeuf was akin to a partisan, but without the hooks, as seen in Chicago (fifth from the right).

[Jean Thibodeau]

Felix;

I have also read that definition of a Langue de Boeuf: depending on which books I use as reference there seem to be a lot of contradiction and confusion when it comes to pole arm names.

The same name may have been applied to different types at different times, also Victorian Era sources may give us different definitions than more recent research.

The Italian Bill I've seen defined vaguely as a Vouge or Guisarme if I remember correctly.

A Langue de Boeuf could be any very large bladed spear head of conventional triangular design or maybe the version I'm having made is a possible sub-type ???

The defining point being a cutting as well as thrusting spear of symmetrical shape as opposed to a one edged Fauchard or Couteaux de Brèche.

Has anybody come up with a consistant typology for Pole arms

[Jeremiah Swanger]

[Gordon Frye]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Jeremiah;

Oh, you can have one too if you wish, as I have not asked Craig to make this an " exclusive " custom piece just for me.

In any case, I don't think one should expect to be able to claim some sort of copyright over historical designs as I would think that they would be in the public domain.

With a totally phantasy piece a maker might respect the desire of the collector to have the only one.

Personally if others want one I am flattered: Just let Craig make the first one before you rush to order

On the other hand You can ask Craig to make yours the second mine is finished as far as I'm concerned.

Gordon;

I appreciate your support but I'm not sure I understand the exact point of your comment.

( Jeremiah Note: That I took no offence but had to read this twice before I realized you were joking )

[Joel Whitmore]

Jean,

That is a unique, and awesome-looking polearm. I was wondering what the literal translation of the word is? Is it "tongue of beef" ? I am curious because we have a local French fried bread here in Louisiana that people use the same French expression for. I have never seen the local term spelled that's why I was wondering. On a local note, everyone thinks that all things French in Louisiana are Cajun. In my area, central Louisiana, there are mainly true French people, directly from the mother country who never came from Nova Scotia. Many former Napoleanic soldiers settled here and we have have small towns called Mansura ( after Mansurah in Egypt) and Borodino. I myself have descendants from the Couvillion and Moulard families of France. Just some Louisiana flavor. Tre' cool polearm there.

Joel

[Jean Thibodeau]

Joel;

Yup, the literal translation would be beefs' tongue although often referred as oxtongue when talking of the polearm not the animal body part.

By the way I love hot or cold sliced beef tongue: My mom used to make it when I was a kid and until a few years ago when heavy kitchen work " cooking " became too much for her. Well she is 85 and lives with me, and I make the food now or mostly get take out food. ( Not as sad as it might sound as there is a small restaurant near my house that makes home style quality meals at very affordable prices. A nice Jamaican born lady with dual American / Canadian citizenship. )

That beef tongue makes great sandwiches: You cook it by boiling and the cooking broth makes a nice bouillon soup.

I'm making myself hungry here !

My ancestors were Acadians that made their way back to Québec after being deported to Louisiana.

I believe there was a French colony in Louisiana before the Acadians were deported there around 1754 give ot take a year.

I guess I have a lot of very distant cousins in Louisiana. Today Québec is close to 80% French speaking with a high percentage of bilingual French & English speakers. The majority of French speakers outside Montreal have little or no spoken English: In other words French is still the primary language with a large English minority population.
The city of Montréal has about a third of the population of the Province.

Oh, and please don't confuse us with the European French: We have a much more North American mindset and the early colonists were never oppressed serfs like pre- French revolution peasants, every household / farm had muskets and knew how to use them ! The French Colony was always outnumbered 10 to 1 when compared to the English / American 13 Colonies. ( And we won a lot of the battles ! )

Anyway, way off topic, but hope of some minor interest.

[Jeremiah Swanger]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Jeremy;

Well I sort of hope that it is somewhat historical as finding a photograph of one exactly like it hasn't been easy so far.

Trying to search some of the primary sources with google brings you to the Museum site but that doesn't show you much more than what Metro station is closest to the Musée de l'Armée in Paris and opening hours etc .....
If I was in Paris I might be able to make an appointment to search their slide data base or actually find the one I'm looking for.

As to Langue de Boeuf, the majority of sources I have been looking at show Partisans and Partisan variants without the hooks at the base of the Blade. Also managed to see the painting quoted as a source for Plate G in that Osprey book but just couldn't see it there ? It's possible that the painting is the source for the kettle hat and not the polearm ?

SOURCE:
" I have found another source for this one in an Osprey MEN-AT ARMS book: FRENCH ARMIES OF THE HUNDRED YEARS WAR, plate G 3 from the book description ( Main sources: Helmets and Langue de Boeuf, French 15 cent., Musée de l'Armée, Paris; Crucifixion, panel painted by Jan van Eyck, Flemish c. 1425 - 30, Metropolitan Museum of art, New York "

The more I look at various polearms the more convinced I am, that as an example, that a halberd is a halberd but there is an infinite style variation i.e. no rigid pattern except for general function: A point, an axe and a hook opposite to the axe edge, proportions and other details being at the whim of the maker ??? At least with early ones and maybe regional preferences that I am only starting to be aware of are at work here !

In the same way, the minimum description of a Langue the Boeuf seems to be very large symmetrical spear head. Adding hooks they might be called other names like partisans or corseque, but would be in the same family.

Assuming that my limited " historical " sources are accurate I don't think that a Langue de Boeuf has to look like my design to be a Langue de Boeuf and that this one may just be one of those possible variants that would fit the definition ?

Oh, well, I am trying to learn more ! If my version is closer to a phantasy piece it does resemble a halberd of symmetrical design more that anything else at least in function.

To echo what Patrick Kelly has stated before: " I hate the argument that it could have been made in the absence of proof to the contrary " So I am trying to avoid saying that it is a historical design without more proof. ( Actually seeing the primary source as opposed to illustrations. )

[Jean Thibodeau]

Found a photographic source of a Langue de Boeuf with the same shape as my design. ( Sorry I don't have a digital camera yet. )

It is 18th century, a bit late for my tastes, but my other sources are 100 Years War era. ( Could be mis-dated as 18th century?)

I might want to call mine a Langue de Boeuf " HALBERD " as opposed to a spear, as I do want mine to be a powerful chopper, and it is surely a bigger version. ( Well this may be my phantasy interpretation of a historical design. )

SOURCE: A GLOSSARY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, DECORATION AND USE OF ARMS AND ARMOR, in all countries and all times; together with some closely related subjects, Page 412 Figure 516
By GEORGE CAMERON STONE. © 1934 by the Southworth Press

Now that's a loooooooooooong title

[Danny Grigg]

Jean

See attached picture

[Danny Grigg]

Jean

Another pic.

The last two are known as Alla Bolognese I think.
Perhaps they are Italian versions of the Langue de boeuf.

Anyone have information on the Alla Bolognese? Is the name correct?

[Sean Flynt]

Polearm terminology is very fluid and confusing, as even the most scholarly sources readily admit. Call this weapon what you like and nobody will really be able to challenge you with much authority. We need a good typology (which, as complex as the subject may be, would probably be simpler than a sword typology).