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Alternate weapons choice to my first post:

1) Bow ( Unchanged ). Having a bow scabbard for the short asian styled bow means having a way to carry it strung if anticipating " trouble ". One would still have to unstring the bow often or daily to avoid it taking a set and losing power..

http://www.horsebows.com/funstuff.htm

2) Close quarter weapon being a shorter sword than a longsword and this could be a messer, falchion, an arming sword or a complex hilted type like a dussack

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...an+Dussack

Or the Sung Dao I just bought. :lol:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...y+Song+Dao

3) Instead of my A&A English bill I might go for my custom Michael Pikula Winged spear for the pole arm.



Diverging from strictly on topic below: ( Sorry Rim, can't help myself .... :D :cool: )

One cheat would in theory be a sling since this takes up zero weight and space and can use any found rock as a missile saving the precious arrows for more important targets, or if one has run out of arrows: This is a " Theoretical Choice " because it would only be a " real choice " if I acquired actual skill in the use of the sling .... but hey, why not bring it along as one could eventually learn how to use a sling with accuracy if one survives long enough. ;) :lol:

Also, the bow might be unstrung most of the time to preserve it's draw strength, but the sling could be put into action faster than stringing the bow if caught by surprise ?

Note: Other tools /weapons, including knife , dagger or small axe would be part of my kit, but not mentioned or counted for the purpose of this Topic, just assume that with backpack clothing etc .... one would have to carry other stuff and maybe another good reason to not load up on more than 3 primary weapons.

Being in a group and/or having pack animals, cart, etc ..... means that one doesn't have to limit oneself to what one can carry and still be mobile .... in a more settled scenario one could have alternate weapons to chose from an armoury.


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Pic of Michael Pikula holding the spear.

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Sorry Ben for missing your post. That is bad and I should feel bad, especially after all the fuss I made about me keeping count of things. I apologize.

No problem Jean. You are a good sport and that is a beautiful spear!

Thanks Tom for your reply.

To the rest, I thoroughly enjoy your input. Lots of sensible statements about keeping thing small, light, quiet, simple and self-reliant.

Good stuff thank you guys!
Ben Coomer wrote:

As for the guns, part of why I didn't go with one (other than not being fond of them anyway) is that they do seem to need a certain amount of infrastructure to support using one as a regular weapon. Even the famed Kentucky long rifle man needed at least someone to make his powder, if not the lead, for his weapon. In an EOTWAWKI scenario, that sort of thing might become scare.


http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html
http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/saltpeter.html

black powder can be made without sulphur (it has a higher ignition temp, but almost no smoke), which is the only component that can't be acquired easily. With the right knowledge and homestead you could easily feed a matchlock, flintlock, or percussion firearm. People use 44cal BP revolvers all the time to hunt white tail deer and in a defensive situation 6 aimed shots in 6 seconds that can reach out and touch someone in excess of 25 yards is a lot better than I can do with my bows.
@Tom.

In all honesty, I was more thinking of the Potassium Nitrate as the potentially limiting factor. As a geologist and chemist in a once geologically active area, I know several places to get sulfur already. Of course that's me and I know how I'd make my living in the post-Apocalypse. KNO3 is not too hard to make but most of the non-industrial methods would be hard to support in a EOTWAWKI scenario from what I've seen.

But even with the recipes, I'd probably stick with bows. Noise and now more smoke still seems much if your hiding from ravaging hordes. Materials would still seem a sticking point, at least compared to bows and arrows where I could find replacements walking down most suburbs' streets. And I have no problems touching targets at 25+ yards.

Add to that, I honestly barely know much about pre-modern firearms besides "point away from face and fire." So all the benefits of them are wasted on me because I don't know anything about them.
Ben Coomer wrote:
@Tom.

In all honesty, I was more thinking of the Potassium Nitrate as the potentially limiting factor.


http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/lecontesalt/leconte.html
Pardon my french, but Urine and animal crap are pretty abundant. A lot more abundant than hardwood, at least in my local area. I'd be hard pressed to find anything but pine or oak within 300 miles. If you look at the range of ash, hickory, cedar, etc. in the US most of the country is distinctly lacking choice bow woods. Arrows in a target setting are reusable, but anytime I shoot in a forest a few end up lost. the 2lbs of bp I keep around will last me at least a thousand shots at 24gr per load.

Quote:
And I have no problems touching targets at 25+ yards.


what about 50? what about 100? 200? 500? I shoot my 1858 remington replica at 15-25 yards, but it is a revolver I can carry under a light shirt. A flintlock longrifle with a patched round ball will kill a ____ at 1-200 yards depending on the skill of the marksman. bring the Minie ball into play and you're talking hitting a man sized target at 2-300 yards with a black powder firearm. They aren't sub MOA target rifles by any means, but outside of specific scenarios (like dense forest... potentially. an arrow is affected by tree limbs a lot more than a chunk of lead) I'd much rather be stuck to pre 1850's tech than pre 1350's tech.

And in the outlandish situation where I'd be transported back to the 15th century "Timeline" Style, I'd definitely be leaving my 45lb longbow at home. It'd be like a popgun :lol:
I'm under no illusions that I'll survive a single day, should it all go to pot.

But I've always said, if the bomb falls, I hope its while I'm at a reenactment event, in full plate armour.


Not because I think it'll help me survive, but solely because in 1000 years time when they excavate the area and find my body, its going to REALLY mess up future archaeology textbooks... :D
James Moore wrote:
I'm under no illusions that I'll survive a single day, should it all go to pot.

But I've always said, if the bomb falls, I hope its while I'm at a reenactment event, in full plate armour.


Not because I think it'll help me survive, but solely because in 1000 years time when they excavate the area and find my body, its going to REALLY mess up future archaeology textbooks... :D


Now THAT'S what I call "planning for the future"! :lol:
James Moore wrote:
I'm under no illusions that I'll survive a single day, should it all go to pot.

But I've always said, if the bomb falls, I hope its while I'm at a reenactment event, in full plate armour.


Not because I think it'll help me survive, but solely because in 1000 years time when they excavate the area and find my body, its going to REALLY mess up future archaeology textbooks... :D


Haha! Such mischief... Much wow... ;)
@ Tom

But you have to maintain piles of piss and crap to produce the Potassium Nitrate. And then comes all the refining. Its relatively infrastructure heavy and our proposed scenario has us wandering a post-apocalyptic world.

As for bow woods, I live in a distinctly not bow wood friendly area. But, even a green branch tied into a D quickly makes a 30 lb. bow. It's nothing to write home about, but its functional. Find a few straight thin branches, spend a bit of time with with a knife and a bit of fire, and I am armed with a ranged weapon that could take down a person. Its not ideal, but I'd like to see you do that with your gun.

As for range, while most of my target shooting is 20-40 yards (best I can get for hunting), I do know my longbow's range is 180 yards or so with my 65 lb. And well over 300 yards for war weights is well documented. Give me a bit of time and motivation with a heavier weight, I'd be regularly hitting targets at the range your asking at.
The bow is the easy part. Unless you have convenient suitable bamboo or reeds or similar, arrows are harder. I've never made a from-scratch bowstring, since I put it in the too-hard basket when making bow and arrows from scratch.

Can be done, and there are plenty of traditional solutions, but DIY-from-scratch bowstrings shouldn't be considered trivial.
TEOTWAWKI/SHTF scenario. Your weapons of choice?
Interesting thread, but it's not as easy as it seems.
However, I may have a few choices such as:
01) An English bullet crossbow
[ Linked Image ]

02) A WWI vintage Indian cavalry sword
[ Linked Image ]

03) A Viking spear
[ Linked Image ]
Re: TEOTWAWKI/SHTF scenario. Your weapons of choice?
Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
Interesting thread, but it's not as easy as it seems.
However, I may have a few choices such as:
01) An English bullet crossbow
[ Linked Image ]


Interesting choice! Do you mind explaining why you choose this rather than a regular crossbow with bolts?
I guess you could pack a lot more bullets than bolts when travelling...
Re: TEOTWAWKI/SHTF scenario. Your weapons of choice?
Rim Andries wrote:
Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
Interesting thread, but it's not as easy as it seems.
However, I may have a few choices such as:
01) An English bullet crossbow
[ Linked Image ]


Interesting choice! Do you mind explaining why you choose this rather than a regular crossbow with bolts?


I had forgotten about bullet crossbows. I always thought they were very neat weapons - basically the powerful air rifles of their day. Or like a slingshot only with hugely more power. And unlike a sling, the learning curve to use one for anyone who has ever fired a crossbow or a rifle is non-existent.

I can see why someone might choose one, actually. They are great for small-game and bird hunting - and possibly even medium- to large- game hunting if you can get close enough to do a head shot. Even if you don't kill the animal outright, you can at least stun it for long enough to let you get in close to finish it with a spear, hunting sword or even a knife. Much quieter than a firearm, of course. And the ammunition - unlike for a firearm or even a real bow - will never be much of a problem: you can use round lead bullets, steel ball-bearings, marbles, molded clay balls, or even carefully chosen pebbles at a pinch.

Actually, does anyone know if anybody makes modern bullet crossbows? I've always wanted one that I could actually shoot...
Ben Coomer wrote:
@ Tom
Its relatively infrastructure heavy and our proposed scenario has us wandering a post-apocalyptic world.


Those that wander are those in the projected 90% die off of the US population within 3-6 weeks of a global disaster. The rare family owned pig farm in a flyover state will have plenty of access to the basic materials to produce rudementary black powder the old fashioned way. I'd only intend to deploy my medieval armament if one of those 90%ers manages to get past my JB welded hurricane shutters and a yard full of caltrops.

But if you are a fallout bandit in the making, science prevails.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOjtlIxYYbs
it'd be easier to loot a sporting goods store for some black powder, but something tells me salt substitute and cold packs will be on the shelves long after every morsel of food ends up appropriated.

Quote:
But, even a green branch tied into a D quickly makes a 30 lb. bow. It's nothing to write home about, but its functional. Find a few straight thin branches, spend a bit of time with with a knife and a bit of fire, and I am armed with a ranged weapon that could take down a person. Its not ideal, but I'd like to see you do that with your gun.

black seamless steel water pipe, an end cap, carbide drill bit (for touch hole), a hickory 2x4+hand saw and file (stock), some hose clamps for barrel bands, a L bracket turned serpentine, cardboard for shot wads, and ball bearings. pair that with your scavenger produced black powder and you have a crude, but non pipebomb black powder shotgun. if we are going by what can be scavenged. I'd give it the old british proof test before ever shouldering it though; 3x powder charge remotely fired by a high tech rope.

Personally i'd add a cabinet scraper to the SHTF bowmaking kit. And make a wood prod notch lock crossbow, but thats just me.

Quote:
As for range, while most of my target shooting is 20-40 yards (best I can get for hunting), I do know my longbow's range is 180 yards or so with my 65 lb. And well over 300 yards for war weights is well documented. Give me a bit of time and motivation with a heavier weight, I'd be regularly hitting targets at the range your asking at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M4-hB9t3kY
at 70 yards olympic shooters with competition bows have trouble keeping arrows within a foot grouping. In ^ video each band is approximately 5" wide. If we go by max range, my M91's sight leaf goes to 2800 arshins (a little over 1 1/4 mile) :lol:

most current production 1 in 60 twist rate reproduction bp rifles are ~3moa firearms (3" at 100 yards, 6 at 200, 12 at 300, etc.) but depending on brand, twist rate, loading, etc. something heirloom quality like a pedersoli 1:18 twist rate 35 cal target rifle with a creedmore sight...
[ Linked Image ]
I already posted my weapon suggestions but there is something else I would say.

If some sort of global disaster happens right now not all will descend into chaos. Let's say 9 out of 10 people drop dead right now. I believe that instead of going full on 'Lord of the Flies" humans form a basic functioning society in weeks if not days.
My main weapon in an apocalyptic situation, if anything, would be people. Most situations and hazards I'd encounter while "wandering" would be basically non-combat situations and having three friends to help dig a hole or build a shelter or light a fire or scare off some wild animals is going to be more useful than three weapons that are just going to impede me with their weight and bulk. Besides, if I have more than one weapon, distributing it among a small, tight-knit group would be far more efficient than hogging them all for myself -- the group would be able to bring multiple weapons to bear at any one time, while I don't think I'd ever be able to use more than two at once. Group size is also an effective deterrent to potential confrontations -- a fight averted is a fight won thrice over.

Not to mention that perpetual wandering is probably a good recipe for dying, as Tom has mentioned. It wouldn't allow me to learn the patterns of resource growth and depletion in the areas I pass through, and I'll keep encountering new forms of vegetation and wildlife that I don't know how to use while the ones that I do know how to use become few and far between. Even nomadic groups of humans generally follow an established annual (or multi-year) round between known and established resource sites, so finding a good territory that has sufficiently abundant and diverse resources but isn't too difficult to defend (and isn't too difficult to escape from) would be one of my first priorities. Better if the soil, water, and light conditions allow some degree of useful farming (and if so many people are just dead then I'd bloody well HAVE ALL THAT LAND FOR MYSELF (or, well, my group). Yay.)

(Mind that I know some basic stone toolmaking techniques, so I can probably easily violate many of your rules just by finding suitable stones, working them for a few hours, and then mounting them on sticks to make a bunch of spears for a whole army of my own.)
Pieter B. wrote:
I already posted my weapon suggestions but there is something else I would say.

If some sort of global disaster happens right now not all will descend into chaos. Let's say 9 out of 10 people drop dead right now. I believe that instead of going full on 'Lord of the Flies" humans form a basic functioning society in weeks if not days.


I agree but I suspect it would be a fair bit slummier than most are used to.
TEOTWAWKI/SHTF scenario. Your weapons of choice?
In modern times there are companies that still manufacture bullet crossbows.
I must be watching too many Crossbow episodes starring Will Lyman and that is why I posted that bullet crossbow picture (Jokes).
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
My main weapon in an apocalyptic situation, if anything, would be people.


No doubt. I agree. However, that's an answer to a question clearly and deliberately engineered to exclude those kinds of considerations in order to stimulate discussion about weapons that are the focus of this site. If you want to break the rules of the proposed scenario, why not just say that your main weapons would be having a tremendous amount of disposable income pre-disaster, acquiring property in a strategically remote, but potentially sustainable part of the world, and building infrastructure and social networks to support you post-disaster? The spirit of the original post seems to me to be to have fun with a mental exercise. It doesn't work if you don't place boundaries on the exercise.

What I like to think I would have: A British 1853 cavalry saber, a lance, and a flintlock pistol.

What I would probably carry: An intermediate sized bow, a robust short sword like a gladius, falchion or elongated bolo, and a 7-8' heavy shafted spear.

I would also be ok with the Bearkiller's set up from the S.M. Stirling Change series of a basket hilted backsword made out of leaf springs, a spear/lance, and a puuko, which is primarily a tool so it doesn't count, so make the third weapon a flintlock rifle.
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