[Myles Mulkey]

[Shane Allee]

Christian the spears look really nice. There are not a lot of people out there doing them right. Know that I have been burnt a few times by people cutting corners or who turned out to not be able to do it correctly.


It did not take long for the whole issue to come up about the mixing of the “Germanic” and “Celtic” culture and objects to come up. There really seems to be some interesting stuff going on between the two. I’ve heard that there was at least one tribe that followed the material culture that is considered Celtic, but was not celtic speaking. Some appear to have been pretty mixed with objects from both cultures in the same context. Want to that someone told me that some genetic research seemed to confirm a mixture. Really should be expected since we see the same kind of thing along the Thracian borders as well.


A couple years ago I was able to get my hands on a copy of a book that covers some of these late La Tene mixed finds. Just wish that I’d had a chance to translate and read more of it. I have been wanting to do one of the single edged swords in there, but not got around to it yet. Glad now since I hadn’t considered that they might not have just supported by the tang. As it is often the case though, any kind of extra metal bits that might have been for support don’t make it into the research drawings and sometimes not even mentioned at all.


Jeroen

I look forward to seeing your La tene with the stacked grip. I really really like the idea of this style of grip just because it is something odd. It is interesting how we see the same concept applied today in grips in plastic toys and things. Sadly I haven’t been able to generate enough interest in anyone to even try and make one of these. I want to say that only one or maybe two appear to have had organics between the plates. A much smaller bronze spacer seems to have been more common. Don’t think that I’d would do leather if I was to do organics though, I’d stick with something like bone or horn that is more solid and won’t compress as much. All dating of these seem to put them in the La Tene III period, even though at first glance that isn’t what I would guess. Naturally with the more shallow bell guard it makes a person think earlier and even the blades to an extent. I do see that they are La Tene III. The bell guard does seem to have a unique curve that we really only seem on these with the stacked grips. The curve is more shallow then we typically see that late, but the center curve is also wider then typical for the La Tene II types. One of these that I got to drawing out really didn’t have all that much room between the top of the bell guard and the first bronze spacer. There is a lot of work in those spacers though. At least sometimes they have a clear taper to them so that they can’t all be the same size. Then you have the small grooves and often times a series of larger grooves cut in the edge. It is really like 20-30 individual seppa for a Japanese sword. It should all make for a really neat sword though.

There are just so many things out there to make and so little time to make them.
Shane

[Petr Florianek]

I dont agree with moving that, it seems more appropriate, i agree, but there are usefull references to recent works, so it wont be possible

[Christian Böhling]

Hi Shane!

There were much influences of the Celts, in the early times, beginning from 500 BC, there seems to be "tribes" northern of the Mittelgebirge (Middle-Mountains) of Germany, called the "Nienburg-Group" which importated many of their Jewelry and tools as well as weapons directly from the North-Alpes and the eastern regions. We have a very interesting finding-place here, called "Schnippenburg" www.schnippenburg.de, where thousands of such items had been offered to unknown gods. In the same period some groups of further north at the lower Elbe seem to be unaffected by those celtic influences, we call them the "Jastorf-Group". Germanics - or what we try to identify as and seperate from others - developed their influence on the trade by either unknown political connections or just by the pressure of warfare, and slowely they developed something, which seems to be recognizable as a kind of new independance in their choose of forms....

About the dating of those celtic-looking, but germanic interpreted swords: when they are accompanied by shield-bosses and their rivets, they are good to date...and the latest (given into burials at the lower Elbe, hundreds of years after the Jastorf-Culture) are accompanied by so called "timble-head rivets. At least one (Nienbüttel) was accompanied by a fibula of the Sheme Almgren 19 (I have to look, if I false called it Almgren 21 in an earlier post, have to correct it). So it is datable into the Years around 0....

The LaTéne III period seems to have a kind of a fluent passage into the later period, the furhter north we look, the later it seems to end...


I agree to Peter and you imagine antler or bone-parts - but cannot get friend with horn, cannot even explain why...


Here now:

The last in-progress-shots.

The finished weapon with its scabbard. I held it most simple as I could....I just wanted it to carry the most typical designs in a not too high interpreted form. I really hope you all like it! I like it! Hope the guy, I made it for, will like it, too This is the panic, I think all of you know well it hangs beside it´s latest daughters, the sabers, and over night it is going to have sex with the 1796 Light Cavalry to have babys

I use to give each sword a name....will you help me to find a good one?

Let me say thank you to all of you for this impressing discussion that all of your comments and remarkings made so rich!!!! This sword is finished now - the next is beeing started in two or three days (have to relax a bit before).

But we will continue this thread, don´t we??

Cheers

Chris

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

Hi Shane, I was hoping you'd chime in on this, as you know a lot more on la Tene swords then I do

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

N.b. here's a picture of a whole series of these swords, all found in the river Maas near Kessel in the Netherlands:
http://geschiedenis.vpro.nl/themasites/images...r=18172455

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Christian Böhling]

Thank you, Jeroen!

ok, hemicrania is noticed good suggestion!

[Christian Böhling]

[Christian Böhling]

Hey you all!

I took the time to study all your homepages and must say:

You are real masters of weaponry! After having recognized to whom I´m talking here, I feel honored!!!

Many many thanks!

Chris

[Nathan Robinson]

And thanks to you, Chris..Really, it's a real pleasure having a new member come to the site and immediately share such a wealth of information. Very nice.

[Petr Florianek]

Hello gentlemen!
I would like to replikate or craft item inspired by the find, which is now in Schleswik museum. Its not my usual interest period so i am little confused. Could you chime in and advice few things?

1) whats the dating, i assume 2nd century AD, but i dont know
2)what kind of blade? lenticular? diamond? welded edges? san mai? or just wrought? is it possible
3)Does the scabbard match?

thanks in advance!

[Petr Florianek]

and here is scabbard, from the same museum in Schleswig. One of those, will it match?

[Nathan Robinson]

This topic has been promoted into a Spotlight Topic.

It's extremely unusual to have a topic in the "Makers" forum hit spotlight status, but so much good info is contained here that it's totally appropriate. It goes far and wide beyond the showing of one's work.

Good job!

[Artis Aboltins]

[Christian Böhling]

[Peter Johnsson]

Petr, the blade that could have been mounted with that nice hilt from the Thorsbjerg find is of a type known today as the Vimose-Illerup type (mostly belonging to the first half of the 3rd C AD). They are slim and rather long blades that narrows to a sharp and sturdy point. The cross section is octagonal: two bevels in the middle and the clearly defined edge bevels outside these. The two mid bevels can have panels (or an exposed core of) pattern welded material. Not all are pattern welded, but made from piled steel. The pattern welded ones usually have a core with a wrapped around edge. Some have very advanced patterns with fish net structure. The work you see on these and contemporary blades of different type are among the finest examples of pattern welding in the western tradition. But some are "mono-steel", that is no pattern apart from the strandy structure of the steel.
Jørgen Ilkjaer defines six sub types of this kind of blade, and there is no room to list all the details in defining features of the sub types in a post on a forum like this. Generally some are a bit shorter between 62-70 cm with somewhat less profile taper, or longer (up till just shy of 80 cm) and stronger profile taper, so that the width behind the point is about half the width of the base. The point is short and has the shape of a pointed gothic arch.
At the base these blades typically vary between 3.5 - 4.5 cm. They tend to be thick at the base: some 7-9 mm. All this varies of course and the sub types have clearly defined variation and proportions. Just to give you a basic idea.

I would stay away from a simple diamond cross section on a blade like this (even if some blades of this type do have this cross section). It is actually a rather rare cross section on roman spathae. Octagonal is much more common. The triangular point is also not so prevalent, but rather a gothic arch shape.

I attach some snapshots from the exhibition "The Spoils of Victory" at the National museum in Kopenhagen. You can perhaps get some idea of the proportions of these blades.

The feel of these blades is almost like that of a 17th C cut & thrust sword. Like stout thrusting swords from the 30 years war. They are stiff and very handy. Seems perfect from swift attacks and efficient thrusts. A bit of blade presence because of the thickness of the spine, but not at all overpowering. Rather a feeling of confident readiness. I would say these blades are advanced and at a high point in the craft of the sword. I get a feeling they were made for swordsmen with very specific demands. They are not the easiest thing to make and there are "short cuts" that would save much work and still provide mostly the same function. These are pushing the line for the craft and the function of the sword.

I studied this type when I was designing the "Alaris" for Albion and came to admire these swords. They do not look much like the popular image of the roman spatha, but they are really fine swords that feel very "right" in your hand.

EDIT: looking at the pics I posted I see it is hard to make out the octagonal section. You mostly only see a faint midrib. This is perhaps a reason why so many roman swords are described as having a diamond section? A little rust, and the details are easily lost.
I attach another pic of another type of sword that is broader, but also has this octagonal section. It may be contemporary to the Vimose-Illerup type, or perhaps a little later?

EDIT2:
I attach a concept drawing of the Alaris I designed for Albion. It shows general shape and proportions of these swords. The blade is of the slightly longer and more pointy type.

[Shane Allee]

[Shane Allee]

[Myles Mulkey]