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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Michael,

Thanks for the offer of a beer. I used to live in Sydney, but escaped to a smaller, saner part of the country.

Michael A White wrote:
If your tried to get through my check point with a sword or an AKM you get treated the same way.


As I would if I was carrying a baseball bat, or a length of iron pipe. That does not make plumbing shops into weapons dealerships though, does it. Anything can be used as a weapon. The fact that something CAN be used as a weapon does not inherently make it a weapon. Pipes are not weapons because they are not made to be used to hurt people. Swords are not made to be used to hurt people either. Where is the difference? Or are we defining anything over a pound in weight, or with a sharp edge or point as a weapon? Things that aren't weapons by design and manufacture only become weapons if used as such. In certain circumstances, such as airports, anything that could be used as a weapon is confiscated, like knitting needles, but we're not seriously considering defining knitting needles as weapons, are we?

If swords are defined as weapons they are likely to be banned. If they are defined as tools then they are not. I use swords every day of my life, as do hundreds of my friends. None of us has ever used a sword as a weapon or seen a sword used as a weapon. Swords are not weapons. They used to be, but they aren't now.

Quote:
Have you look into US Federal law reguarding foreign involment in domestic affairs? I would not want you to get in any legal trouble.


?? could you elaborate?

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Michael A White




Location: Missouri, USA
Joined: 07 Jun 2005

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,

Your listed city and State is normally the most open to limiting ownership of these types of items. I know Cold Steel has to sell some products out of another state to get around California law. What types of proposals are you seeing there? Both local, and statewide? Is there a well organized movement supporting bans forming? Should there be some sort of alert system or topic on your website just to keep the member sup on items pending in their nations. Is the US community begining to forming some sort of trade group and/ or membership based association to provide a single voice? I am concerned about members getting involved in other nations domestic issues. Is there a member who might be an attorney willing to answer questions on this? If you think this is as big of a threat as you wrote, then someone needs to begin planning something. If community waits like the British seem to have, will it not lose?



M. A. White


Last edited by Michael A White on Thu 16 Feb, 2006 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Michael A White




Location: Missouri, USA
Joined: 07 Jun 2005

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Hand,


Thank you for your last post.

I think I now understand your point. I think maybe I allowed my pride to get the best of my intellect. I was offended by your statement on firearms, and that blinded me to your real point. I can be a very stubborn person at times. You are right, a baseball bat is not a weapon, nor is a piece of pipe, and neither is a piece of lumber. But each can be used for harm if someone wanted to.

I understand you leaving Sydney. Great town, but very large. I have been to four or five of your nations cities, and the most fun I ever had was in a little town called Bunberry or Bunburry, not sure of the spelling, in Western Australia. I remember the first time I ordered a beer, I asked for a "Fosters" brand, an older gentleman kindly informed me that, "Australians do not drink that." I soon learned to drink EB in Perth, and VB in Sydney.


In reguards to the US law question. I was asking questions to a friend who is a professional lobbyist (For a pork producers group.), and she made the comment that there were US Federal laws limiting the involment of foreign nationals in lobbying US domestic affairs. She did not go into detail. That was why I asked if maybe you knew more.


Sincerely,

Michael A. White


Last edited by Michael A White on Thu 16 Feb, 2006 6:05 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael A White wrote:
I still disagree with you Mr. Hand. But it is your website. Therefore swords are not weapons. They are art.

What's his Website? myArmoury.com? Uhm, this is my site.

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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 5:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen;

I think your point is also sinking in about swords not being weapons in the modern context.

We ( Some ), here may be harder to convince because the " word " weapon is not a " dirty word " for us so our reaction to the word is positive as opposed to those you are trying to convince where weapon always seems to be associated with violence or negative things.

In the modern context sword are not weapons, if they were, modern armies would abandon using firearms and equipped their soldiers with swords instead.

Even the police would be using swords instead of pistols, tazers or pepper spray.

Maybe a silly example but: Lets say we built a war fleet of 4th B.C. century Greek Triremes, these in their time would be war ships i.e. Weapons of war ! A weapon in the large sense of the word ! Now, would you consider a fleet of these as weapons or as historical reconstructions. I guess someone could " with a lot of rowers " misuse a Trireme to ram a small sail boat and misuse it as a weapon. Eek! BUT no-one would build one or many with this intent.

Just using the philosophical principal of argument by the absurd to make a point: Hope this is useful and not more counter productive input. At the very least I hope at worse too weird to be useful. Blush Laughing Out Loud

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!


Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Thu 16 Feb, 2006 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shawn Mulock




Location: Calgary Alberta, Canada
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 100

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Swords as weapons? Oh no, they are a part of my heritage.         Reply with quote

I have found this thread to particularly interesting to me, as I am in Canada, where there have been tiny rumblings about the threat of a ban on swords. Well, more like media hype.

I have never considered swords to be weapons as one would define an artifact whose purpose at one time may have been to kill. I also do not consider firearms to be weapons unless they are being used as such. It is all in the context of the application of the tool.

I consider swords to be items from my rich, long and strong cultural heritage which includes family of status in both England and Germany. I have had people ask me why I train with swords and I tell them that I am connecting to my heritage. Not once has anybody gone from that statement to asking me how dangerous it is. I always maintain a degree of historical context in my conversations with the uninitiated.

During our demonstrations we speak about the effectiveness of swords and just how swiftly they can be used, but it is always in reference to training, history and heritage, never the sword as a "weapon".

"It is not what you have, but what you have done".
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael A White wrote:
I soon learned to drink EB in Perth, and VB in Sydney.


VB is a passable quaffing beer, but I tend to think of it as a tribute to Australia's ongoing quest for inoffensive mediocrity. When in Sydney I drink Reschs. I am lucky enough to live where most of Australia's beer ingredients are grown, and the local beer is brewed with meltwater from the mountain in Australia's oldest brewery, Cascade. Mmmm.

Quote:
In reguards to the US law question. I was asking questions to a friend who is a professional lobbyist (For a pork producers group.), and she made the comment that there were US Federal laws limiting the involment of foreign nationals in lobbying US domestic affairs. She did not go into detail. That was why I asked if maybe you knew more.


I don't. My sole experience lobbying in the US was writing a letter of complaint to one of the major networks (IIRC it was CBS) after a piece of yellow journalism about the "dangers" posed by a chap doing swordsmithing in his suburban shed. I'm really just trying to offer advice to people in other countries, based on my experiences here in Australia where we kicked a few "own goals" before working out the formula. Unfortunately it was too late for Victoria, where we got a stupid law with so many people exempted that the police don't even check if they see you with a sword. We did get the satisfaction of seeing the Police Minister sacked for being a zealot on this and other issues, but the stupid law remains. I just received another questionaire from the government wanting more details about our federation. It's offensive, but it's what we have to do so that our Victorian members can keep their swords.

I'm glad we're getting more onto the same page, and I apologise for being grumpy earlier.

And no, I don't own myArmoury, just www.stoccata.org

Cheers
Stephen

Cheers

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Cole Sibley




Location: Montana, USA
Joined: 19 Apr 2005

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Posts: 60

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I dislike politics, and politicians, and I'm suprised at myself for even responding to a post of this nature (however, thanks to Nathan for allowing a place for us to express ourselves).

<Edited>
I deleted an angry response to my perception of Mr. Hands' closed mindness and short sightedness, as it does not relate to this web site's focus (thanks again Nathan).

Regarding swords:
I am of the opinion the sword is a tool, and should be treated as such. I do not appreciate or accept Anyones attempts to regulate the way I live my life, and if I want to swing my sword at my pell, I will do so. Perhaps I cannot do whatever I want in someone else's Salle (nor would I want or expect to), but in my own, I will do as I please. My freedoms are precious to me, and I will not give them up.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cole Sibley wrote:

<Edited>
I deleted an angry response to my perception of Mr. Hands' closed mindness and short sightedness, as it does not relate to this web site's focus (thanks again Nathan).


Thanks for the edit. I must point out that even your edited portion has an unwelcomed bash in there. Knock it off. That's the final thing I'll say on this matter. If you have anything else to add, PM it to me.

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Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to thank both Stephen and Nathan for their work in communications whether it is teaching the martial arts of the use of the sword, the historical and artistic value of the sword and what it has contributed to society through the ages.
Speaking as someone who studied martial arts to the rank of black belt, karate to be specific, it was never the venue of the schools or the students that I know of that the purpose of learning karate was to go out and maim or kill people. The teaching and learning was much more so for the learning of wisdom in mind body and spirit, to grow in character as well as to learn mind and body coordination. The school where I earned my black belt and the several other schools I attended for a time through the years all taught that when a situation has come to violence in most scenarios the martial artist has failed in what he has learned and allowed the situation to get out of his control wherein he should have been able to utilize the years of his learning to subdue the situation without the use of violence. As I said, in "most" situations, in reality there are situations where there are no alternatives, but I can personally say that I have not had to resort to any violence in some 27 years, and in fact the situation that resorted to violence 27 years ago was a failure on my part to control it.
My rank was achieved in October of 2004, after an on and off studying of martial arts through the years, so I am also speaking from recent knowledge. The violence of students was admonished by all instructors at all four schools.
My point here is this, the art of learning how to use the sword is very much like the art I studied, it is to teach introspective learning, harmony between the mind, body, spirit and sword. I understand the sword to be a symbol of honor and therefore a learning tool to teach us to grow in virtue. Although I have never formally trained at a school in the use of swords except for a little bit of Kendo years ago, I am pretty sure that Stephen would agree with me on this.
I have learned how to use all kinds of things as a weapon and I surely do not need a sword to accomplish great bodily harm, that can be done with a pencil or a pen or a whole bunch of different objects readily available to anyone.

Just as the pencil or pen is a learning tool, so is the sword, not only does it teach honor, spiritual, mind and body harmony, it teaches respect. For one to disrespect the sword while practicing a person could cause themselve's physical harm. Something that harms or kills many more people than anything else is the automobile but I highly doubt society would be willing to go back to the days of the horse and buggy to save lives.

Thank you Stephen and Nathan and everyone else involved in the teaching and production of the sword, you make available to all of us a very important learning tool Exclamation

Sincerely,

Bob
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Fri 17 Feb, 2006 12:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cole,

You argue for your right to own swords and state that you dislike politics. Then you criticise the person who is spending his time getting involved in this grubby world on your behalf, so you can continue to own your swords.

I don't like politics any more than you do. It's just that I've made a decision to stand up and fight for our rights to own swords and unfortunately that means getting involved in politics.

What precisely do you think I'm arguing in favour of?

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Fri 17 Feb, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess i'm missing something here since what Steven put forward back of the begining of this thread makes complete sense to me . This is about sales and he's told you the sales pitch to the sort of people who are going to line up for the ego boosting sense of superiority that comes from "protecting you from yourself" becuase "they know better than you" whats "for your own good" and are seeking to relieve you of your property to do it so if you wish to keep your property you need to pitch it in a way that appeals to thier sense of superiority because logic won't work. How is this done? Pitch swords as objects d'arte since art is a term far to broadly painted with today and any schmuck in a apartment smearing fecise(sp) on a canvas and getting a government grant to do it is creating "art" in these sorts of peoples lexicon since it appeals to that same sense of ego boosting superiority to "get it" that thats art and your not bright enough to will latch onto the idea that swords are okay because thier art and artistic endevores to feed thier ego. Its just a sales pitch and one that makes a great deal of sense when you consider the personality types we're discussing here. It is irrelevant that "we" know swords are weapons we're not looking to ban them it is relevant that the folks on the other side come to believe they're not or you won't own them one day. There is sense to be made in this context of Steven's approch after all aren't alot of collections of arms and armour in art museums today.

Even from a consumer standpoint using this pitch works. Think of it in terms of those stupid collector plates that The Frankiln Mints always doing (the ones with kittens and dogs or Elvis) . These will never have food served on them , they will never be used as service wear they were made as and bought by people who will either 1) display them on a wall, mantle or in a china cabinet so they're art or 2) store them in thier original box for 30 years to sell thinking they'll accrue value over time so thier an investment neither of which has anything to do with being an plate so "its not a plate". It looks like a plate but beacuse of its use its "not a plate". "We" know its a plate(and a badly decorated one at that) but the perception of those that buy it is of anything but. This change in perception as it exists for people who buy these things(plates) can be brought about in the folks who would like to climb so far up your posterior they can reach out your mouth and drive your car for you regarding the issue of owning swords by using this pitch to appeal to thier egotistical sense of intelectual superiority. Thats whats important if you want to continue to own these things.

Stevens also correct about the press . These people who are exactly of the sort we're discussing make aliving off of mischaracterising,misquaoting and misrepresenting thing to achieve thier desired outcome. Do you really trust these people to not troll through a place like this, a rich treasure trove of goods to do all of the above with and not do so if theres hay to made of it? I sure don't. It sucks and all but it is an unfortunate reality of the world we live in. They're the folks to be
pissed at and guarded around.


This is about you keeping your toys and the slaes pitch to allow you to do so and not much more as far as I can tell.

Off the soap box now.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Feb, 2006 7:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excellent points, Allan.

We can argue about the semantics of what "sword" means until our faces are blue. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference how *we* define the word, it makes all the difference in the world how legislators do. Let's make sure that we paint this hobby in the correct light.

HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand


"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Michael A White




Location: Missouri, USA
Joined: 07 Jun 2005

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PostPosted: Sat 18 Feb, 2006 6:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Hand Wrote.

"VB is a passable quaffing beer, but I tend to think of it as a tribute to Australia's ongoing quest for inoffensive mediocrity. When in Sydney I drink Reschs. I am lucky enough to live where most of Australia's beer ingredients are grown, and the local beer is brewed with meltwater from the mountain in Australia's oldest brewery, Cascade. Mmmm."

I find this very disturbing. I feel taken. Maybe that's what I get for playing tourist. If you ever find your self in Singapore try "Tiger" beer, that is "inoffensive mediocrity", and at only S$ 10.00 a bottle the last time I was there. This summer I will try some, Reschs. Thank you for the heads up.


I have found the it is much easier to work in local politics. (Large amount of money is the only thing that seems to matter in US national politics these days.) We ( the whole community of interested parties.) managed to override the veto of our states governor's on a law that was needed. That was the first override in the state for over a hundred years. This year we plan on roling back offending laws from the past.

In one post you spoke of a "Form letter." for sending to political officals concerning this subject. If Nathan would allow it, you should post one. If not, would you please PM it to me. I am attending a university at night and I have to do a term project on public policy, my professor seems to think I could make this my topic.

Have a great week.

Michael A. White

Would someone please educate me on how all of you are posting the quotes from past posts?
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Feb, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael A White wrote:

Would someone please educate me on how all of you are posting the quotes from past posts?


Hey Michael,

If the above is what you are referring to it's not hard with this system. In the upper right hand corner of the post that you wish to quote is a button named "quote." Simply click on that button and a reply is auto-generated that has the quote of the message with "quote" tags one before the quoted text and one after the quoted text. You can delete things between the tags if you want to only quote some portion of the original. Or you can add your own quote tags and intersperse stuff within your
Michael A White wrote:
quotes
like so...

Hope this helps...

TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Feb, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Swords as weapons? Oh no, they are a part of my heritage         Reply with quote

Shawn Mulock wrote:
I have never considered swords to be weapons as one would define an artifact whose purpose at one time may have been to kill. I also do not consider firearms to be weapons unless they are being used as such. It is all in the context of the application of the tool.

During our demonstrations we speak about the effectiveness of swords and just how swiftly they can be used, but it is always in reference to training, history and heritage, never the sword as a "weapon".


Amen. I couldn't agree more, nor put it better myself. Cool

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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