[Michael G. Myers]

Fantastic shots, Gavin. Big thanks for taking the time, from me at least. Give ol' Noah a tip of the hat, as well.

Your grip is the same as the one I'm using--with the same slips, etc, I'm guessing-- with respect to the clearer axe emphasis. Reading back over the thread, I now notice the replies focusing on exact grip, where as I was really asking between this grip and and a slightly wider one more generally thought of as the purvue of staff weapons (a'la Silver's instructions)...I see that my own post was ill-defined as to what I was asking. My use is limited to a static pell in the backyard as something to better gauge distance and gain more familiarity with the Dane axe. Gavin, have you tried the tight diagonal blows with a change of lead hand (striking down, right to left--left hand moves to fore, striking down, left to right) sometimes suggested? I haven't in any serious fashion, and was curious. With only a few weeks of off-and-on play it strikes me as interesting in theory, but limited in application and effective realization.

My problem with lengthening the haft is simply that we begin to creep into all kinds of areas and questions. Nothing wrong with an extra five inches though, if you can still handle it effectively in whatever form is decided. I'm trying to maximize controllable reach with this grip myself, after all, and our builds are similar. In general use, there's still the question of a level of specialization in the use of the Dane axe, and the point at which we begin to ask more of the weapon than its actual role may have necessitated. Looking at the photos, It isn't hard to imagine the shortcomings of the Dane axe in one-on-one. It's all a bit frustrating without a few concrete ideas from which to form an outline of even generalized tactics, not to mention actual technique. Frankly, I'd settle for something vague like, "The Huscarls then broke from the wall singly and in pairs or groups and engaged their now wide-spaced, uphill charging foemen" or "And at the meeting of the shield wall they were held and their uphill wave checked, only to see the wall open up to disgorge the dreaded axe men in a devastating crash, followed on by the spearmen and the advance of the shield wall to again offer protection" or "And Skip, that dreaded long-axe wielder, then executed his favoured technique of.."

I suppose the qualifier is sustaining such descriptions over various text. I dunno. Anyone have any specific supposition regarding the Viking tales and their heroes using the two-handed axe in groups? I know next to nothing about them myself, but I'm curious. It's an obvious avenue of research into the development of Dane axe that I've, predictably, yet to adequately explore...though it is waiting. I still can't quite get a grip on specifics from the tales of axe use in one-on-one.

Now, what happened to Noah's shield, Gavin? And, where are your spear-mates?

'More seriously, taking the time was above and beyond, Gavin. Thanks again,



Mike

[Michael G. Myers]

[Sean Flynt]

Long axes continued in use in Ireland throughout the 16th century but I'm not aware that they were widely used elsewhere. Short axes served alongside halberds and other polearms in Europe during at least the first half of the 16th century. These are common in Dürer's woodcuts (available from Dover and very useful to students of arms and armour). Perhaps continental soldiers discarded the long axe on the grounds that it was "neither here nor there"–too long for cutting blows at close-quarters and too short for effective thrusting. The short axe had the advantage at close-quarters, but why use that weapon when a halberd or pike, relatively short sword and dagger equipped an infantryman for most edged-weapon combat scenarios? (Can y'all tell that I'm currently immersed in Osprey's Landesknecht book? )

[Patrick Kelly]

[Sean Flynt]

...and Patrick's discussion reminds me of another point. The Gallowglass axe, with a maximum length of 6', seems to be a direct descendent of the early longaxe. But the interesting thing to note is that the Irish used it in a relatively disorganized manner, and were often beaten when confronting modern armies in the open. Compare their weapons and organization (or lack of it) to those of continental military organization after around 1500, which became the standard. The Europeans seem to have largely abandoned the longaxe as they adopted highly-structured classical infantry strategy. Maybe the longaxe is a dandy weapon in relativley disorganized combat but a liability in combat contexts in which maintaining a formation and acting in unison are most important.

By the way, Waldeman asserts that some true polearms did evolve directly from the longaxe (bardiche, etc). Based on his writing and what I've read elsewhere, it seems that some polearms evolved from the longaxe in this fashion:

The area of the haft below the longaxe head proved to be a point of dangerous structural stress, so the lower point of the blade was extended downward and inward toward the haft, where it could be attached by a pin or driven through the haft and clinched. That early attempt to stabilize the traditional longaxe design was the beginning of the two-eye hafting of medieval polearms (and the Lochaber axe). Joining those eyes in one long, closed socket (formed by folding the two halves of the blade around a mandrel) further strengthened the design. Stretching the upper point of the axe produced a better thrusting weapon. Moving that stretched point in-line with the haft increased the thrusting power of the weapon. A thrusting weapon needs good length, which is impractical with a true, thick axe head, so sacrifice a bit of iron for the benefit of a couple more feet of ash and iron strips to strengthen and defend the assembly. Suddenly, you're holding a halberd.

[Daniel Staberg]

But such soldiers as the Galloglasses, Anglo-Danish huscarls and the Varangians are AFAIK described as both using the the longaxe and fighting in fairly discipline close order formations.

[Sean Flynt]

[Sean Flynt]

For what it's worth, several of Derrick's images show the Irish longaxe in action. This one is especially interesting because it shows cavalry engagements (note orderly Irish cav at right) and Kern or Gallowglass using longaxes against well-formed English shot and more loosely-organized supporting English halberdiers. Notice that the Irish are shown using their longaxes in an overhead chopping motion, while the halberdiers are leading with the points of their weapons.

[Sean Flynt]

For what it's worth (considering contemporary propaganda motives) several of Derrick's images show the Irish longaxe in action. This one is especially interesting because it shows both cavalry engagements (note orderly Irish cav at right) and Kern or Gallowglass using longaxes against well-formed units of English shot and English halberdiers. Notice that the lone Irish axeman remaining on the field is shown using his axe in an overhead chopping motion, while the halberdiers are leading with the points of their weapons or keeping the blades forward, if elevated . The Irish are fleeing without any apparent attention to formation. We can't tell from the image if this depicts a complete rout of the Irish from a disciplined formation or simply shows the Irish leaving the field as they came onto it. You know, I hadn't ever noticed until just now that the two men standing to the axe-man's left are throwing darts! Maybe they are the other two men who make up a complete "Spar" and defend the axe-wielding Gallowglass as described in the text I pasted into my earlier post. Fascinating stuff!

[Bob Burns]

Every weapon has it's strength and it's weakness, weapons were created in those days with the main intent of the weapon being easily learned by the mainstream. However, a weapon expert will know his weapon like the back of his hand, put this axe in the hands of a martial artist who is expert with this kind or similar weapon and he will devise moves with it that you never dreamed. Take a Kung Fu master for instance, he will take this weapon and develop it several levels up.
Getting back to strength and weakness, a longer haft gains you something and you give up something, you gain reach, you loose some speed of dexterity, make the haft shorter and it loses applications. I do believe that the hooking maneuvers were one of the intents of this weapon, though I know little along the lines of medieval weaponry, I have learned that a lot of the art of medieval weapons has been lost, it did not stay as a part of the culture as did similar weapons in the asian world. So unless someone has access to the concrete facts of how this weapon was intended to be used, then who is to say what it was designed for? Sure it is obvious that the main use was as a hacking weapon, but that does not mean this was the limit of it's intended use.
As for figure 8s with this weapon, it is deadly coming or going, if it is the backside of the axe head that is coming at him, the upward curved point of the blade can slice him open. Or the figure 8 being done to open his guard and follow through with a pole thrust strike to the solar plexus area, then overhead hack with the blade of the axe head. Like I said before, I could go on and on.

Happy Collecting,

Bob

[Gavin Kisebach]

[Gavin Kisebach]

Actually Bob I think that extra haft gives you more speed and control - is a XIIa "slower" than a type XII? you're spreading your hands out more, giving power and control but maintaining your effective range. I think the main target of that extra range may be ankles and knees, if anything (this would also lead to some nasty hooking). Just to beat the drum again, hooking can be your worst enemy if multiple combat - anytime you commit to one action for that long , you're in real danger from other combatants. It's never the guy you're fighting that kills you, it's his buddy that you didn't notice.

[Bob Burns]

I suppose I would prefer about 62 inches. Though I practiced a lot with the "bo" it was not my expertise weapon, my weapon is the nunchuku, one or two handed I am very fast. Longer weapon faster than a shorter weapon? No, it is slower, however there is more applied force. When you get into the type XII, XIIa, XV etc swords, your getting beyond my area of knowledge, as I said, I am a novice in the medieval weaponry world and I freely admit that. I am here to learn, not to preach what I "think" I know. What I do have behind me is an extensive education in karate, that of which I can no longer do because of back problems. I have not hit a heavy bag in over a year and I have one in the basement. But I was told no more impact sports of any kind, not even jogging. Which had a lot to do with getting me into swords, though I had already had the spark of interest lit. I was told upon inquiry by my orthopedic surgeon that not only could I workout with swords but that it would be very good for me. My strength in karate was freestyle fighting, I've bang heads and had my head banged, loved every minute of it. Perhaps that is where some of my brain damage came from? LOL!

It is hard to give up something you truly love, but thank the gods I found medieval european swords and weapons, and as a matter of fact, I like this more!
When you guys get into the indepth science of swords, what I try to do is study what you are saying and learn from it. Many of you have taught be a lot so far and guided me in the right direction to websites etc. All of which I appreciate to no end.
The longer or heavier a weapon is, the more cumbersome it is, not that it is necessarily cumbersome per say. Say for instance to compare two of my swords, the German Bastard Sword and the English Longsword, the bastard sword is almost twice the weight and a tad bit longer, no way is it as fast as the longsword, however it has awesome power!

12 inch nunchuku vs 14 inch nunchuku, the 12 inch is faster, a lot faster! For those that may not be familiar, a nunchuku is basically two sticks attached by a short length of rope or chain.

To try to teach or preach how a medieval weapon is used, I would not attempt this, that would be just plain ignorant arrogance, as I have said repeatedly, I am only a novice in this area. But as a martial artist who trained for several years intensively I think I can come up with some relatively intelligent ideas.
I only toss an idea up for conversation to see what other people think of it, that is all I do.

Happy Collecting,

Bob

[Gavin Kisebach]

Bob, please give us pics as soon as you get the axe, I just don't know how to hold a bo, so the descriptor isn't helping me at all. Are you saying palms down thumbs in? On the subject of gripping, I'm sure we all agree that grips change for different applications, so I don't want to give the impression that there is one almighty grip.

What I would suggest, however, is that it is probably best not to confuse any two weapons. While some principles are universal, to suggest that an axe is a staff that just happens to have a choppy pokey at one end ignores the primary function and design of the axe as a tool - choppy choppy, not hooky pokey sweepy buttstrokey etc.

I certainly don't want to come off wrong here, but in the simplest possible way get back to the foundation of an axe - the chop. Chop to the arm, chop off a leg, chop to the head and neck, then get the heck outta there. I was also a student of karate for years. One of the hardest lessons, coming from that environment, is that you're not just fighting one person, and death can come from the most unexpected places. Group combat, even small skirmishes, are completely different animals.

[Patrick Kelly]

[Gavin Kisebach]

Wow Patrick, I never thought of that. I suppose in an era when iron was valued as currency, a peasant (bondi?) might not have enough iron for a large, specialized axe(i.e. too narrow a blade to do a lot of heavy utility work) in addition to his other household tools.

[Bob Burns]

I will gladly do that, again remember these are only my ideas and not my knowledge of the axe. The main way to hold a bo as I was taught. Grips are placed so as to divide the weapon in thirds. Right hand palm up, left hand palm down. Though this weapon was not a weapon of the asian world, I gotta tell ya, I'd love to see what a Kung Fu master would come up with in the use of this weapon, though I realize this is fantasy thinking.
Patrick, thanks for your insight on the broad knowledge of weapons by those who used them. This is another reason why I say that all I do is throw a thought up for conversation, so that I can read the feedback and learn from it. I can't begin to tell you all how much I really love this medieval stuff! Sure wish I'd of discovered this years ago, though it was a huge uplift to learn this about myself when I did, as I was rather depressed being told my karate days were over.
It was like, well now what do I do with myself? I worked so hard for this belt and now I am finished.
I guess we never really know what waits for us around the next corner.
I sure am grateful for Arms & Armor and Albion being around, to make available to us, high quality replica weapons. One thing that is very true, I am always happy to read about someone's new acquisition, as I personally know the happiness of getting that new item.
What we all share is one beautiful obsession about the history of our ancestors from centuries ago, we help the legacy live on and not die out. So we contribute to society with the madness of our obsession, but this is a good obsession in my view, for the reasons I stated above.

Happy Collecting,

Bob

[Patrick Kelly]

[Bob Burns]

I was medically forced to quit karate, the black belt was hard earned, this was not one of those black belt factory schools that are all over the place these days. Except for the two 6th degree black belts, I was the best freestyle fighter in any of the four schools. My weak area was kata, because I did not care that much about kata, I enjoyed sparring and self defense.
Yes, I have to move in a different direction, 2 mild henias in cervical, 2 mild hernias in lumbar, bone spurs here and there in spine as well as in both shoulders and moderate arthritis all through the spine. This is a result of abusing my body like I was 25 for too many years. I was told by 3 doctors that my karate days are OVER!
I was going to go for my 2nd and possibly my 3rd degree black belt, but oh well. I also trained in reality combat under Keith Hackney at Hackneys Combat. www.hackneyscombat.com
As it was, it took me some 200 chiropractor visits to get to black belt, it finally got so bad, I could not go to class anymore.
Thank god for excellent health insurance, I am one of the lucky few.
I also trained in Kenpo karate back in my late teens.

Anyway, once again I got kind of carried away there. It is hard for me to believe that the shape of the Danish War Axe was not also designed for the hooking applications and as to be used as a staff weapon.

Remember several years ago, when there was an instructional book found by archeologists dating from the 16th or 15th century, depicting the sword being used in ways never dreamed of? I remember hearing about this on TV several years ago. So why would not the same be true for the Danish War Axe? Just a thought.

Happy Collecting,

Bob

[Jean Thibodeau]

Bob;

I can see were you had to stop the regular karate training putting a lot of stress on damaged body parts: I wonder how much or little skill you could still display if you had to use your karate to defend yourself ? Also, can you still go through the training motions in a less intense way, slow motion training with no impact to keep some of the muscle memory tuned.

Would some of the softer more circular martial arts like aikido be within the stress level that your body could take ???

People seem to be able to continue training with aikido at fairly advanced ages.

Oh, with the Danish axe a lot of what you have said makes a lot of sense to me and deep knowledge of one or more martial arts does help in imagining possible techniques even if it's hard to prove or even know what was done in period.

In any case I have been enjoying your contributions.