[Julian Reynolds]

Randall,

The other thing to think about is licensing. Making your own black powder here in the UK is difficult, from a licensing point of view, and even getting hold of the ingredients is not straightforward. Also, reenactors tend to have a central powder store for an event, controlled by a specified (and licensed) person, and the powder is distributed to individual reenactors from that store for use on the day. There is a difference in UK explosives licensing between having powder temporarily for use on a specific occasion, and keeping powder yourself for general use (acquire only & acquire+keep). For legal reasons (and safety) you do not want to be doling out home-made powder to all of your reenactor mates for them to use on the field! (For the same reasons why you can't dole out your hand-loaded ammunition on the range.) Which is why only comercially-made powder is used.

One thing that has come out of this topic from the very start, I'm sure you can see, is how we have to temper our actions to the laws of the land (the very reason why I made these handgonnes as 'dummies' in the first place!).

Julian

[Robert W Tucker]

Hello I make flintlock rifles here in the states and just read an interesting article in the back woodsmen magazine about using A pistol barrel to make A hand gun, they looked really nice and I was wondering for you folks in Europe if you didn't put a touch hole in the barrel you could have yourself A "real hand gun" and it would be legal because you could never ignite the powder A friend in my gun guild said while he spent some time in Germany he made A snap lock musket never put the touch hole in it till he got back to the states, A decent place to get them would be track of the wolf.

[Randall Moffett]

Julian,

Very true. I knew a few people who owned various reenactment guns and they had to do some rather interesting things to make them meet a number of requirements. I know one friend had a gun made and had the barrel twice as long and hid in the stock to keep it out of the hand gun restrictions. It had a false touch hole where it should have been historically and one hidden in the stock where it really fired.

Good luck with that though. I had a pole gun for years that was simple a prop and it looked fairly good. If you have no reason or need to shoot it why hassle with so many limitations. That said where I am living now I very likely will get a firing one once I get some other things I wanted.

Robert,

Not a bad idea indeed. Next time I am at the grocery store I will see if I cannot find it. Sounds interesting.

RPM

[Julian Reynolds]

Robert,

A pistol barrel that just needs a touch-hole drilling in it, is in fact totally illegal in this country (it's illegal to even drill a hole in one unless you are a licensed firearms dealer). It is classed as a readily-converted replica and you will end up doing 5 years if you buy, make or convert one. Be warned anyone in the UK looking at such things which are readily available abroad (not just Track of the Wolf, there are many people doing them).

We can own them once they are fully made up as a live-firing gun, but they would have to go on our licence as a registered firearm or shotgun, and there are restrictions on where you can use them and who can use them. In order to freely 'show and tell' with such handgonnes, in this country, they need to be inert replicas that are not readily convertible into live-firing guns, which is what I have made....

Randall,

I have also seen the 'hidden barrel' handgonne concept - this is because shotguns, in this country, need to have a 24" barrel minimum in order to be held on a shotgun certificate, hence the hidden extra length.

Kyle,

I think your query needs to be a topic on its own, in order not to sidetrack this one even more.....

Julian

[T. Arndt]

[Kurt Scholz]

salpeter is available at old stables where it naturally grows from the combination of stone and urine/feces. It's also a very common problem when renovating old buildings, so ask someone who works in this business. this is raw salpeter, called "Mauersalpeter" in German that has to be purified for further use, but is really the stuff that was used in the early days of the handgonne. The other stuff is no problem, although you will have to modify both of them according to old recipes.

[Julian Reynolds]

Indeed, Kurt, saltpetre occurs naturally and possibly the easiest and most readily available way to get it in its raw, natural state is from the 'bloom' or 'brush' of saltpetre crystals found growing out of damp walls in basements etc. (I have some lovely blooms growing out of the walls in my cellar).

However, this needs to be refined before it can be used (as you say), and the quantities are very small.

My comment, T Arndt, was regarding the purchase of refined saltpetre for the purposes of making explosives. This is tightly controlled in the UK. You could maybe try and obtain it on the pretext of using it for the preservation of pork products, but good luck with that one...... Anyhow, I would in no way condone the making of black powder at home, in the UK, because this is clearly illegal (as I have stated above) without the proper documentation.

For those of you in more favourable jurisdictions, I would once again suggest a visit to this website:

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html

It really does cover most, if not all, of the processes and recipes for making black powder.

Julian

[Robert W Tucker]

Julian

I did not know that I will be sure to remember that if I am ever living in the UK but still could you use the barrel if you put a weld half way down or plugged it permanently some how not that replica wood ones look bad at all just wondering for the person that wanted a steel barrel you know if you did this then reported to the proper people so it would not be documented as a gun but be known as a non firing replica ?

[Julian Reynolds]

Robert,

I did look into making all-steel barrels for these. The options were:

For the pole handgonne, the whole thing would have to be a solid piece of mild steel, with maybe the last inch at the muzzle drilled out to look like the end of a 'real' barrel.

For the hackbut, I could have had it made from steel as if it were a 'real' handgonne, but the touch-hole would have to be blind or non-existant, with a permanent steel plug in the chamber, and the barrel would have to be slotted (ie. a wide slot going right through the underside of the barrel, along most of its length, hidden by the stock). This would have rendered it unable to be readily converted into a live-firing gun. Indeed, this is what would have to be done to, say, the type of non-firing flintlock replicas available in the States that you mentioned in your previous post. Then they would probably have to be passed by a Proof House.

UK gun law is tricky, to say the least. Best to stick to wood, for the dummy barrels. It's certainly vastly cheaper and easier, and you can make it look pretty authentic, even close up.

Julian

[Kurt Scholz]

The pork salpeter is heavily mixed with salt in order to make it unsuitable for explosives because salt is fire retarding. There are medieval recipes on separating salpeter and salt because they had just the same problem, but had to take out much less salt. An old farm is a much better place to get quantities of salpeter and of course you can make your own salpeter garden, there are lots of recipes from the French revolution when France refined that technology. in Germany you can get the allowance to manufacture munitions if you need it for a hobby like historic weapon demonstration/sniping/biathlon (they reuse the cartridges because the used cartridges have a better fit resulting in higher precision).

[Robert W Tucker]

Julian

Hey if you ever find yourself in Montana I would like you to look me up I think I'm going to make some of these gun's now for fun so if your here you can fire mine for real if you want and if you get a chance to fire real ones take it after years of firing guns I can say the most rewarding are primitive every time you load them it gets more exciting to hit your target same for any black powder weapon I've ever fired.

[Julian Reynolds]

Robert,

Thanks for the offer, if I am ever in your neck of the woods......

Live-firing versions of these handgonnes are perfectly legal in this country, so long as you have the necessary certificates (which I do), however, they would have to spend their lives locked in steel cabinets and are tightly controlled as to place of use and persons who can use them. I wanted something I could 'show and tell' and let members of the public handle. For that, they need to be inert (ie. non-firing).

I agree with you about the 'fun' of using 'primitive' guns - I regularly shoot and demonstrate matchlocks, flintlocks, percussion guns, and they are just a blast(!). I have been looking into getting the pole handgonne made up as a live-firing gun, and have found a reputable maker who can do it, and have a budget, just need to get it organised.

Anyway, here's another pic of that crazy double-barrelled pole handgonne, and an even crazier one that comes with its own tripod (trawled off the vikingsword forum as before). A gun dealer friend of mine has an original 4-barrelled pole handgonne, configured so all 4 barrels go off at once (like a medieval volley gun).

Julian

[Sean Manning]

[Leo Todeschini]

KNO3 is not illegal to purchase in the UK, but it can be hard to find. Agricultural suppliers will sell you 25Kg for about £20 if they don't think you are dodgy. Failing that www.traditionalmaterials.co.uk will sell it to you in 1kg bottles and as he is a reenactor he knows the sort of things you are likely to want it for. Also sells sulphur.

That said making black powder is rather tricky and potentially very dangerous and frankly to be avoided especially as by doing this you will become an unlicensed magazine, an unlicensed explosives manufacturer and be conspiring to make explosives and presumably by implication of what you are up to, conspiring to cause explosions. Given the current climate and a judge who may take against you that should see you put away for a few years.

Under UK law if you want a black powder/explosives acquire and keep licence it is in fact your right and it is the onus of the Police to prove that you are unsuitable through previous criminal conviction or mental instability. Basically if you have a reasonable reason to want it, they will grant it without a fuss. This will take about 4 weeks and cost you about £40 for 5 years and you can even make the storage box yourself out of wood with no need for a safe or cabinet. Basically it is easy and cheap.

As regards the firearm itself, I am uncertain about the replica laws but basically the Police are interested in converted blank firing revolvers etc that can be used in crime, A 14thC handgonne will not be of much concern to them, so if you are concerned, check with you local firearms officer, but I would be surprised if they had a problem with you making if look real.

As regards the law of manufacturing the gun, you can make the barrel exactly as you want so that it can be steel or bronze or whatever and bored to the full depth and diameter that you want. However the moment you drill the touch hole to make it viable then you have manufactured a firearm and trouble will come. If this hole is not drilled the 'gun' is not viable and so is not a gun, it is just a prop.

The law is open to interpretation and I am not a lawyer, however that is my understanding of the situation. Please seek independant advice if you are unsure.

You will also find that intent forms part of the law too. If you manufacture a gun that is viable in every way but has no touch hole and you present it for sale as viable, but the customer must drill the hole then although you have not manufactured a gun your intent to get to that point or for others to get to that point will form part of the case against you.

Tod

[Julian Reynolds]

Leo,

A UK acquire/keep explosives certificate for a private individual does not cost anything, and lasts for 3 years only (at least, that was the case earlier this year). And it is not a exactly a right - it is conditional upon you having a legitimate use for the type of powder you apply for (such as use in a muzzle-loading gun, or for re-enactments), assuming you satisfy the storage, good character and soundness of mind conditions, too. And your use is restricted to the one you apply for. You cannot just apply for a certificate because you feel like burning powder for no reason other than you feel it is your right!

Making barrels is also not so straigthtforward. Intent does play a part: If you make one identical to a 'real' one (except minus the touch hole), and you are making it as a 'barrel' for a 'gun', then that is exactly what it is. If it can be further 'readily converted' into a gun that can fire a projectile (therefore becoming either a shotgun or firearm), simply by drilling one small hole, then good luck trying to argue that you have not committed an offence when you find yourself in the dock.....That's because UK law makes no distinction between an illegal hangonne and, say, an illegal revolver. Just because it's 14thC technology, does not make it less deadly or illegal, in the same way that the law makes no distinction between a matchlock musket and a modern 12 gauge pump action riot gun - both require certification and registration to own and use - even a 17thC original antique must go on your certificate if you intend to fire it in this country!!!!

I understand there are differences between the legalities of making shotgun barrels and firearm barrels, and all kinds of other considerations such as proofing etc. Simply put: it you think it can be easily made to fire something out of the end of the barrel (even just smoke and flame - forward venting blank firers are controlled in this country), then you shouldn't be making it yourself, you should take advice from your friendly local gunsmith!

Julian

[Leo Todeschini]

Julian Reynolds wrote

[Julian Reynolds]

The law in the UK makes no distinction between the relative risks of various types of shotgun - it simply classifies them according to very specific criteria, as either a shotgun, or not, and sets out the appropriate criteria for ownership. What is open to interpretation, are the security conditions that are required in various jurisdictions. For instance, in some jurisdictions the use of a gun clamp secured to a beam in the attic is acceptable for one shotgun. In others, a cabinet is mandatory (for just one shotgun, muzzleloading or not). In others, you may separate the barrel/action from the stock and only need to store that securely. It is all down to how flexible your local Firearms Liaison Officer is, and what he/she is willing to permit. There is, unfortunately, no hard-and-fast rule across the country, so you must always check with your local FLO beforehand.

This is a digression as the main issue in my post above regards the manufacture of realistic imitation firearms* by private individuals, which shouldn't really be attempted in this country without consulting either a gunsmith or your local FLO beforehand and should be done very cautiously.

* but only of a type from prior to 1871, as anything you make that post-dates then will be an offence under the Violent Crime Reduction Bill unless you have the necessary permissions. It's a minefield.....

Julian

[William P]

one question about handgonnes id like to ask about their accuracy,

generally up to what ranges can handgonnes be reasonably capable of hitting a target www.musketeer.ch does distances of 25 paces (i assume that equates roughly to 25 metres)

[Ralph Grinly]

Many years ago I was part of a medieval re-enactment society in my area, and constructed a "hand Gonne" pretty similar to the hackbut illustrated earlier. A short ( about 9 inch steel tube barrel, .75 cal) mounted on a paddle shaped wooden stock. Maybe not the most accurate of replicas, but it looked OK. We test fired it..and it would punch quite easily through an old 44 gallon steel drum at about 10 paces. I know that's no indication of what a "real" one could do, as we were using modern black powder.

But the point I'd really like to make is regarding accuracy..even when firing with the barrel supported on a pavaise..it was VERY hard to get any sort of consistency in aiming. You have the butt tucked under your arm , whilst with the other you try to insert a red hot wire, or a piece of slowmatch into the flash pan. Whilst doing this..there is an almost irresistable urge to watch the flash pan and match, rather that watch where you are "supposed" to be aiming. Most of the time shots would go very high, missing targets at even 10 paces. I seriously suspect these earliest of guns were mainly used in a 'shock and awe' fashion..frightening the 'c**p' out of the enemy with the flash,noise, smoke and the devil's scent of burnt sulphur. And if on the remote chance you DID hit someone..well, it was 'proof' that devilish forces were involved

[Julian Reynolds]

There's a young lad on the Muzzleloading Forum who is doing some very interesting experiments building and shooting pole handgonnes, if you are interested in this kind of weapon. I'm quite envious, as our laws here in the UK pretty much prohibit us from doing similar experimentation....

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/sh...id/270560/