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Petr Florianek
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 Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Christian and Peter: its good food for thought thinking abourt early germanic artwork. May be they just needed eastern impulse to grow the famous styles of interwowen animals...
And Christian, well said, every good science is philosophy, i am graduated antropologist and i see human soul an character everywhere.
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Paul Hansen
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| Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Christian Böhling wrote: | And warloards were surrounded by warriors standing outside the normal society, beeing loyal to their chieftains, defending his power if needed agains the people of the own tribe....Maybe that was the way of life of people like Ariovist, Maroboduus or at least Arminius! Prototypes of what we later can see in the viking-chieftains - viking-kings developing to national monarches (if you want so, from Rollo over William Duke of Normandie to the king of England or from Harald Blaatand over Sveinn Tveskegg to the Kingdom of Denmark!
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From what I understand, is that the fundament of the chieftain's wealth (and thus power) was still his own farmstead. A very large one of course, but still not a "real" king like one would see in the middle ages: someone completely dependent on taxes and similar revenues. Instead something like a primus-inter-pares among other farmers.
What I don't completely understand is the position of the warriors in the following of such a chieftain. What was their social background? Didn't they have any prospect of inheriting a farm of their own, i.e. were they of lower social status? Or did they give up their rights in a gamble to earn more through conquest and plunder?
Since, as I understand it, in Germanic society, every free man was also held to be a warrior, there is not so much to be gained in way of status by becoming a "professional" warrior rather than a farmer / part-time warrior...
Any thoughts?
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul Hansen wrote: | | Christian Böhling wrote: | And warloards were surrounded by warriors standing outside the normal society, beeing loyal to their chieftains, defending his power if needed agains the people of the own tribe....Maybe that was the way of life of people like Ariovist, Maroboduus or at least Arminius! Prototypes of what we later can see in the viking-chieftains - viking-kings developing to national monarches (if you want so, from Rollo over William Duke of Normandie to the king of England or from Harald Blaatand over Sveinn Tveskegg to the Kingdom of Denmark!
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From what I understand, is that the fundament of the chieftain's wealth (and thus power) was still his own farmstead. A very large one of course, but still not a "real" king like one would see in the middle ages: someone completely dependent on taxes and similar revenues. Instead something like a primus-inter-pares among other farmers.
What I don't completely understand is the position of the warriors in the following of such a chieftain. What was their social background? Didn't they have any prospect of inheriting a farm of their own, i.e. were they of lower social status? Or did they give up their rights in a gamble to earn more through conquest and plunder?
Since, as I understand it, in Germanic society, every free man was also held to be a warrior, there is not so much to be gained in way of status by becoming a "professional" warrior rather than a farmer / part-time warrior...
Any thoughts? |
My thoughts on the matter are that it was just a cultural practice, which served to grant more abstract status as opposed to tangible wealth. In other words, it was viewed as an important thing to do, and if you were good enough to be in the king's permanent service, you must be really good. Maybe they wanted to be viewed with more prestige than they really owned.
However, I think that once a man acquired enough loot to give away as gifts, he could hire a number of men to come follow him, especially after proving his experience in the service of the chieftain. He could sort of set himself up as his own. But maybe that's the difference between chieftains and warlords. 
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Christian Böhling
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| Paul Hansen wrote: |
From what I understand, is that the fundament of the chieftain's wealth (and thus power) was still his own farmstead. A very large one of course, but still not a "real" king like one would see in the middle ages: someone completely dependent on taxes and similar revenues. Instead something like a primus-inter-pares among other farmers.
What I don't completely understand is the position of the warriors in the following of such a chieftain. What was their social background? Didn't they have any prospect of inheriting a farm of their own, i.e. were they of lower social status? Or did they give up their rights in a gamble to earn more through conquest and plunder?
Since, as I understand it, in Germanic society, every free man was also held to be a warrior, there is not so much to be gained in way of status by becoming a "professional" warrior rather than a farmer / part-time warrior...
Any thoughts? |
It is often a matter of how the terms "king" or "chieftain" were understood. The informations we have are very much depending on that what romans or greeks wrote about the germanics. The first question one has to ask is: for whom was it written? The readers should see the germanics in a way, they were able to understand but not without underlining of the specialities those people had compared to romans or greeks. The term king seems to be a germanic word which was used by the romans to describe this special kind of leadership. Later we find the old-nordic word "KonungR".
So first the king was probably a farmer, too, but with a higher status and power than a "chieftain" was given. Maybe a chieftain was elected for special purposes, like organizing the community in questions of law or questions of defending-ability in the early days of germanic sociaties. A king seems to have been something special and seems to have been coming up under the influence of a longer war-time and under the influences of celtic arisocratic leaders. The medieval Kings were a late echoe of it but developed into what you said as depending on taxes. But also the early medieval kings often were huge farmers, too, especially in the north.
The next term we have to ask for is "tribe". When Tacitus described the germanics (ca 98 A.D; "germania") he tried to localize different tribes but also explained, that many of them were associations of several "tribes" or loose alliances.
Sometimes "tribes" departed into two or more new seperations, like the Chatti, of which the Batavians had been splitted.
To see the whole germanic social structures roman descriptions may be insufficient. But the archaeological sources are difficult to interprete. They show us that there have been many differences depending on the area. What was typical here could have been untypical at another region. The finds from Illerup Ådal show very professionals structured armies probably organized by a king.
Maybe we can differ: The actions of the Suebi under Ariovist (whom the romans called "king") in real had been activities of a kind of "warlordship" connected to the rush for success of conquering or plundering. The actions of Cimbri and Teutoni in difference seem to have been activities of the whole comunities probably led by elected chieftains in the search for a new existence and a better future. That religiuos cults played a role in existencial campains may be shown by their ritus to destroy everything the enemy owned and not to keep anything (Orosius about the Cimbri and Teutoni). This could also have played a role in the offerings of the danish bogs....
Marobuduus could have raised a kind of kingdom along the lines of south-eastern kingdoms. Arminius seems to have been more complicate. He was first a leader of some cheruscian allied forces and fought for romes interests, later leader of an uprise (probably with the status of a chieftain for a limited period, maybe elected to lead the four tribes of Bructeri, marsi, Chatti ad Cheruski), but in the end Tacitus described him as a man who reached out for the acssession to be "king", leading more than just those four tribes and even without a concrete war situation and therefor was beeing killed by an assessor. Tacitus said, the oncle of Arminius changed the side when Arminius attacked Maroboduus ("King" of the Markomanni"), the oncle (Inguiomerus) fought for Maroboduus, even if he also was a Cheruscian chief!!
This short summary shows that the world of the germanic sociaties was no stabile and interchangeble unique, but a labile, unstabile and transforming world. Depending on influences and situations (migration, climate-changes, conflicts inside or outside).
It is difficult to say, the germanics have been like this or like that, we only can see the tip of an iceberg, most of it is hidden under the surface. Some questions maybe never will be answered.
www.archaeoschmiede.de
www.eisenzeithaus.de
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Christian Böhling
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Myles Mulkey wrote: |
My thoughts on the matter are that it was just a cultural practice, which served to grant more abstract status as opposed to tangible wealth. In other words, it was viewed as an important thing to do, and if you were good enough to be in the king's permanent service, you must be really good. Maybe they wanted to be viewed with more prestige than they really owned.
However, I think that once a man acquired enough loot to give away as gifts, he could hire a number of men to come follow him, especially after proving his experience in the service of the chieftain. He could sort of set himself up as his own. But maybe that's the difference between chieftains and warlords. |
This was probably the case in the gold-hoards of the 3rd and 4th century with its parted golden plates, prepared to be given away. A late expression is the giving of the golden ring viking leaders gave to their loyal warriors....maybe it all started with seeing the romans giving away a gold-ring to the roman knights (Arminius was made a roman knight and maybe was given a gold-ring)
www.archaeoschmiede.de
www.eisenzeithaus.de
Last edited by Christian Böhling on Wed 17 Feb, 2010 2:25 am; edited 3 times in total
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Christian Böhling
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Now we have it! We started to discuss artifacts like weapons and combs and ended in a general discussion about the people behind! That´s what archaeology is all about!!! Great! Who used a weapon and for what? These are key-questions! They can also help us to understand form and decorations on things... A kind of short single-edged sword called Sax or Sahs gave a whole community the name "Sachsen", and I live now in a country called "Lower-Saxony". 
So when we now discuss iron-age artifacts and crafts we should have a good background for it!
Thanks to all!!!
www.archaeoschmiede.de
www.eisenzeithaus.de
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Christian, (or anyone else who may know the answer)
In regards to designs, I have heard that knotwork patterns were obtained from the peoples of the steppes during the Migration Period. If that is so, later Scandinavian knotwork styles like Urnes and Borre are the descendants of these Scythian/Sarmatian knotwork patterns. My question is, when during the Migration Period are these knotwork styles said to have been adopted by the Germanic peoples?
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Christian Böhling
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Myles Mulkey wrote: | Christian, (or anyone else who may know the answer)
In regards to designs, I have heard that knotwork patterns were obtained from the peoples of the steppes during the Migration Period. If that is so, later Scandinavian knotwork styles like Urnes and Borre are the descendants of these Scythian/Sarmatian knotwork patterns. My question is, when during the Migration Period are these knotwork styles said to have been adopted by the Germanic peoples? |
There are different theories existing about the influences of the artwork of Germanics, and we have to seperate different cultures within the so called germania libera and also the different regions and the time we observe.
For example: pre-roman ironage groups from 500 - 300 BC (early fortification periode with less celtic import) in the northwest regions (North Holland, Northwest Germany, Denmark), same groups from 300 BC - 150 BC (late fortification periode with more or many celtic impressed or directly imported material). When we see the mentioned celtic finds, we have to look at the so called "celtic world" and see the developement of artwork there finding the celtic cultures are differing much from each other. The eastern groups seem to have been impressed by skyth forms and transported those styles as exports to the northernmost germanic groups, where they started to continue in own adaptions until they are kind of independend from their roots. The knotwork styles seem to have taken other ways of transfer, possibly either coming from arabian-influenced sarmatian styles over the late roman british islands into the early irish regions and from there to scandinavia (from 400 AD to 600 AD) developing ther to the well known scandinavian forms of the pre-vinking and the viking age in form of Borre-Style and Mammen-Style and later Urnes-style, where they changed from non-christian to early christian interpretable forms (Jellinge-Style). When we look at Scandinavia from the bronce-age and compare it to western Germany we can see a great difference in the love of picture-expressions. The boat and prayer or offer-scenes shown at the rock-pictures of Buhuslän have no comparable find in Germany, many hundred years later we find the rich stone-pictures in Gotland with nothing to compare to in Germany....Were the ancient germans too stupid for such or the scandinavian people natural born artists? No. Today we can differ regions of the world with a rich comic-strip culture and regions where comic strips ar even not understood! Why do Danish people not create those wonderful coloured arras or hangings like in the arabian world and the russians of south sibiria do?
So it is (for me) hard to answer to your question with a " then" or "that time"....because I can not be concrete enough when asked for the "germanic people" as they never existed. There have been "germanic people living until the medieval periode totally without any knotwork-style decoration exept thing used by christian priests like bone cases with kinds of knotwork in the irish styles or so.... I am so brutal to say, that MOST of the so called germanic people did never take use of knotwork decorations at all!
I hope I brought more dark into the light with these confusing few sentences .... 
Ther are dozends of art-historians finding dozends of possible explainings...
BTW: The famous Kong Haralds Stone in Jelling shows Jesus Christ hanging in a tree like Odin hung for nine days during his seek for wisdom and runic magic....They simply understood Christ as "wise and omnipotent", Jesus MUST have experienced the same torture than Odin! He was the new King in heaven!
www.archaeoschmiede.de
www.eisenzeithaus.de
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIsWb3u2Azc
If you follow this link, at 7 minutes and 40 seconds, there is an Alamannic lyre which has a design on it which I would consider knotwork. Was this type of design uncommon in the later Migration Period, and I would also think almost nonexistent in the earlier times?
By the way, Christian, your post is perfectly clear. The analogy to comic book culture is a good model, I think. You should be a professor 
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Christian Böhling
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Myles Mulkey wrote: | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIsWb3u2Azc
If you follow this link, at 7 minutes and 40 seconds, there is an Alamannic lyre which has a design on it which I would consider knotwork. Was this type of design uncommon in the later Migration Period, and I would also think almost nonexistent in the earlier times?
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Myles, this knotwork is a special and early kind which developed from the simple point-and-circle decorations carved next to next and then connected with lines which give the look of a twisted braid....You can find them also on bonework (especially on allamannic combs!
www.archaeoschmiede.de
www.eisenzeithaus.de
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Böhling wrote: | | Myles Mulkey wrote: | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIsWb3u2Azc
If you follow this link, at 7 minutes and 40 seconds, there is an Alamannic lyre which has a design on it which I would consider knotwork. Was this type of design uncommon in the later Migration Period, and I would also think almost nonexistent in the earlier times?
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Myles, this knotwork is a special and early kind which developed from the simple point-and-circle decorations carved next to next and then connected with lines which give the look of a twisted braid....You can find them also on bonework (especially on allamannic combs! |
How early would you say?
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: Iron Age crafts |
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Hi Myles
It is thought that cloisonne inlay work and chip caving developed from the Hun steppe cultures who introduced them to the germanic world ,and in my opinion these reach there most accomplished form in the Sutton Hoo treasures.
'Knot work', 'ribbon' or 'interlace' take your pick of the description I believe has been used by many different cultures from ancient times, I can think of Assyrian and Hittite early expressions of this decorative form, which continued through Greek and Roman forms. See 'Decorative Patterns of the Ancient World' 1930 by Flinders Petrie.
In Britain at least this form of interlace decoration can also be found on Romano-British villa mosaics, although I can not think of any insular La Tene art forms using interlace,until it appears in early anglo-saxon cultural artifacts. I suspect that perhaps interlace of similair designs can also be found in other areas of Roman settlement in mainland europe.Perhaps this could be a link also. It is not a big step for an artist/craftsman though from simple ring and dot decorative motiffs to join these elements to design interlace.
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: Iron Age crafts |
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Hi Myles,
Without seeming to be wanting to contradict Christian information, the Thorsberg tunic is actually constructed from two different weaves, the arms been diamond twill,and the main body a broken chevron herringbone weave. See the very nice engraving in Conrad Engelhardt's 'Denmark in the Early Iron Age' that Christian mentions in an earlier posting.
The trousers are also constructed against the bias of their weave on the leggings, tight to the legs ,but because of this construction method the weave gives a little when bending the knee alowing a comfortable fit, the bum area is indeed baggy leading some to postulate they wear worn by a mounted horse warrior, the extra space needed to sit astride a horse,having said that if you do construct a pair based on the pattern from the find you will find this benifit of the extra bum space equally applies when sitting down on the ground or stool in them, say if you where a crafsmen performing any number of crafts!!
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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David Huggins
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Thanks David!
I had heard also that the cloisonne inlays had arrived from steppe peoples, and I thought that I had read knotwork patterns did as well. Unfortunately, I am not nearly as well read as the rest of you folks. Origins aside, though, what is the general idea of when these patterns were becoming common in Central and Northern Europe? The lyre in the video is 6th Century if I'm not mistaken. If the Age of Migrations began approximately around 300 CE, how long afterwards did it take for designs like this to be commonplace among groups like the Alamanni, Franks, etc? Or were they never common?
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Christian Böhling
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 10:18 am Post subject: Re: iron age crafts |
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Thanks David, this is a very good overview about the modern point of view, seein the germanic warfare in a different light in comparison to the old imagination of the noble savage!
On page 233 (or page 8 in this pdf-file) there is a good summary of warfare actions and their circumstances and differences!
Again thank you David, this helpes much to understand what I meant with my explanations in these two iron-age threads
www.archaeoschmiede.de
www.eisenzeithaus.de
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Christian Böhling
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Myles Mulkey wrote: | Thanks David!
I had heard also that the cloisonne inlays had arrived from steppe peoples, and I thought that I had read knotwork patterns did as well. Unfortunately, I am not nearly as well read as the rest of you folks. Origins aside, though, what is the general idea of when these patterns were becoming common in Central and Northern Europe? The lyre in the video is 6th Century if I'm not mistaken. If the Age of Migrations began approximately around 300 CE, how long afterwards did it take for designs like this to be commonplace among groups like the Alamanni, Franks, etc? Or were they never common? |
The term "common" is wrong I think..... When those decorations appear on late roman churches in Armenia (!) and on holy relics boxes and cases of the early Ireland, later in Germany and Denmark, and on some music-instruments which are unique in this moment and without hundreds of similair finds everywhere, we can´t call them "common". But this might be the situation mirrored by the archaeological finds.... These patterns seem to have been common in Ireland and Scotland from the 6th century on....and in scandinavian and german early cities (Haithabu, Hammaburg, Cologne...) and they disappeared in Germany and Denmark staying alive in Ireland and Scotland....
I think those patterns have never been "common" in the roman iron-age outside the roman empire until the early medieval kingdoms renewed the roman culture and expanded it further north. It seems that the real "knotwork"-patterns followed the traces of christianization by beeing made popular through the monks during their missionary activities!
(And in the movie it is a christian girl playing the lyra after she had given a crucifix brooch to one of the prisoners of war...the lyra was a roman instrument and rome was a christianized at this time)
So: again I do not want to say "than". (but early christian influences can not be ignored, even if the people first took only the decorative influences and later the spiritual as you can see in Denmark).
I cannot be more precise... 
www.archaeoschmiede.de
www.eisenzeithaus.de
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Christian Böhling
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Iron Age crafts |
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| David Huggins wrote: | Hi Myles,
Without seeming to be wanting to contradict Christian information, the Thorsberg tunic is actually constructed from two different weaves, the arms been diamond twill,and the main body a broken chevron herringbone weave. See the very nice engraving in Conrad Engelhardt's 'Denmark in the Early Iron Age' that Christian mentions in an earlier posting.
The trousers are also constructed against the bias of their weave on the leggings, tight to the legs ,but because of this construction method the weave gives a little when bending the knee alowing a comfortable fit, the bum area is indeed baggy leading some to postulate they wear worn by a mounted horse warrior, the extra space needed to sit astride a horse,having said that if you do construct a pair based on the pattern from the find you will find this benifit of the extra bum space equally applies when sitting down on the ground or stool in them, say if you where a crafsmen performing any number of crafts!!
best
Dave |
Hi David, this is by far not contradicting my informations, it is in contrary a good addition! There are suggestions of those weaving patterns to have come over from Assyria, probably transmitted by the roman army if not the whole garment was a roman cavalry garment (id est: "tunica rossa" awarded by the army of rome for extraordinary service) . A funny thing here is, when someone is reconstructing a german warrior of the early 3rd century AD, you will see a roman clothed warrior-reenactor with roman weapons with one single runic inscription to have something that can identify the Germanic I can add that there are roman monumental arts showing such throusers, which could have been common in the roman cavalry of the third century).
www.archaeoschmiede.de
www.eisenzeithaus.de
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Christian Böhling wrote: | | Myles Mulkey wrote: | Thanks David!
I had heard also that the cloisonne inlays had arrived from steppe peoples, and I thought that I had read knotwork patterns did as well. Unfortunately, I am not nearly as well read as the rest of you folks. Origins aside, though, what is the general idea of when these patterns were becoming common in Central and Northern Europe? The lyre in the video is 6th Century if I'm not mistaken. If the Age of Migrations began approximately around 300 CE, how long afterwards did it take for designs like this to be commonplace among groups like the Alamanni, Franks, etc? Or were they never common? |
The term "common" is wrong I think..... When those decorations appear on late roman churches in Armenia (!) and on holy relics boxes and cases of the early Ireland, later in Germany and Denmark, and on some music-instruments which are unique in this moment and without hundreds of similair finds everywhere, we can´t call them "common". But this might be the situation mirrored by the archaeological finds.... These patterns seem to have been common in Ireland and Scotland from the 6th century on....and in scandinavian and german early cities (Haithabu, Hammaburg, Cologne...) and they disappeared in Germany and Denmark staying alive in Ireland and Scotland....
I think those patterns have never been "common" in the roman iron-age outside the roman empire until the early medieval kingdoms renewed the roman culture and expanded it further north. It seems that the real "knotwork"-patterns followed the traces of christianization by beeing made popular through the monks during their missionary activities!
(And in the movie it is a christian girl playing the lyra after she had given a crucifix brooch to one of the prisoners of war...the lyra was a roman instrument and rome was a christianized at this time)
So: again I do not want to say "than". (but early christian influences can not be ignored, even if the people first took only the decorative influences and later the spiritual as you can see in Denmark).
I cannot be more precise... |
Oh I get it now! Sorry it took me so long Thanks for the great explanation.
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Mon 01 Mar, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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I also have a question related to woodworking. How were spear shafts made during this time? Were they made from saplings or cut down from larger logs? This is one of the most basic aspects of possibly the most basic weapon of the period, and I have no idea how to go about it.
My assumption is that a large, straight sapling would be harvested and allowed to season with the bark still on for a while. After that, the bark is removed and the outer surface of the sapling is shaved to a uniform shape. Perhaps with a drawknife?
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