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T. Hamilton
Location: United States Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 85
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Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Great video! I loved that show, and thought I'd seen them all. Guess I missed that one. Are heater shields made the same way, or did construction techniques change by then? A simple "yes" or "no" will do, because if it's different, I'll start a new thread, rather than hijack this one.
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Michael Doughty
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 30
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Posted: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: |
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William R. Short wrote: | Michael Doughty wrote: | Here's a good primer on shield construction that should bring you up to speed: |
Thanks for the kind words about our work. |
Cool... now I can get an answer straight from the horse's mouth, as it were...
Would you say this gentleman is intentionally attacking this shield "With the grain" in order to split it? This would be more difficult were the shield pointed more toward the attacker as, I'd hope, the defender would be holding it.
I'm thinking that if this shield had triple iron bands on the back as pictured elsewhere, he'd have little chance of recovering his axe, and would likely soon be receiving a seax between the ribs. What do you think the outcome would have been had he attacked overhand to the shield, striking against the grain?
Thanx for this article, I refer to it often as an instructional aid.
Michael Doughty
Aldùlfr the Shieldmaker
Saxon Shield
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William R. Short
Location: New England Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 24
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Posted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Michael Doughty wrote: | Thanx for this article, I refer to it often as an instructional aid. |
Again, my thanks for your interest in our work.
The test was done as a part of a video shoot about Viking axe combat for the Modern Marvel show on the History Channel. So the main goal was to get some compelling video for the show. We also hoped we could show that hiding behind a shield as if it were a wall was a bad idea, and that facing a shield with linen was a good idea. These last two goals were secondary, and since the production company was paying the costs, we couldn't do this test as thoroughly as we wished.
We created a rig to hold the shield, avoiding a vice-like grip, but using something we hoped simulated a human grip on the shield. I wish we had instrumented the grip to measure forces.
The gentleman wielding the axe brings with him years and years of experience with historical carpentry, and he uses the tool with extraordinary precision and power.
I think the test showed that hiding behind the shield like a wall is a bad idea. The axeman used the attack he thought most likely to damage the shield and person who would have been behind it. If a hand had been holding the shield, it would have been partially severed. I wish we had instrumented the rig, because even if the hand weren't severed, I don't believe that a person could maintain a hold on the shield under the force of the blow. I think bones would have broken, an opinion confirmed by an orthopedic surgeon and hand specialist who reviewed the video. I don't think the fellow holding the shield would be in a position to draw a sax or anything else after the blow.
The test suggests all sorts of additional tests, and we haven't had time (or funds) to follow up on any of them. I hope someone else will.
To us, the test confirmed that there are better, more effective ways to use a Viking shield. The test also confirmed the value of a linen facing.
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Michael Doughty
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 30
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Posted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Outstanding!
The article suggests this shield is covered in leather. If it's just linen, then that is impressive!
I cover the back sides of my shields as well, with linen or felt or thin leather. On kite shields, or on my cross-plied round shields, I also add a layer of linen between the plies. (Hell, I've even done them with carbon fiber and Kevlar, but don't tell anyone)
I wish I could afford to build a few to do test-to-failure on, so I'm always interested in looking at any damaged shields that come my way.
I build my (round) shields to have a bit of flex... to deform slightly, then spring back, absorbing as much energy as possible. I suspect that if struck across the grain, very little damage would be done, to the shield at least. The hand and arm holding the shield might be another matter altogether. Even if the arm wasn't broken, it'd probably hurt like hell, and one could well lose the ability to continue holding the shield.
With a convex kite shield, this built-in flex would be much harder to attain, the convex shape being much stiffer. For this reason, I have some doubts about kite shields being constructed of butted planks. With the grain running vertically, and lacking any cross-bracing (As far as I'm aware), I think the shield would want to split lengthwise, linen or leather facing notwithstanding.
Kite shields seem to be used primarily by mounted warriors, so sword or axe strikes from below would be unlikely. The length of the kite shield provides an effective weapon, the butt end applied liberally to the face and throat of attackers on foot, or used to sweep other mounted warriors from their saddles, while providing a defense from missile weapons.
The biggest problem with kite shields IMHO, is the position of the forearm right there behind the shield. Anything penetrating the shield could easily pass also through the arm. Perhaps I should provide a sheet of metal between the enarmes and the shield back?
BTW... I was just watching a thing on The History Channel, Barbarians II, where King Alfred and his West Saxons were marching around with really nice oval Celtic shields. What's up with THAT?
Michael Doughty
Aldùlfr the Shieldmaker
Saxon Shield
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William R. Short
Location: New England Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 24
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Posted: Thu 07 Jan, 2010 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Michael Doughty wrote: | The article suggests this shield is covered in leather. If it's just linen, then that is impressive! |
I beg your pardon -- that's my error. I relied on memory, rather than checking. The shield article on the Hurstwic site is correct -- it's leather.
Best regards,
William Short
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Michael Doughty
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 30
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Posted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 1:05 am Post subject: |
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William R. Short wrote: |
The test was done as a part of a video shoot about Viking axe combat for the Modern Marvel show on the History Channel... |
William:
I just happened upon a bit of the mentioned video on YouTube;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZIHs_Pm_H8&feature=related
Viking sword and shield demonstration sequence
Is there any more of this out there that you could point us to?
Thanx,
Michael Doughty
Aldùlfr the Shieldmaker
Saxon Shield
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William R. Short
Location: New England Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 24
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Posted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Michael Doughty wrote: | I just happened upon a bit of the mentioned video on YouTube; |
I had forgotten about that! It was a student project at the museum, and we were not entirely pleased by it.
The production company refused us permission to use any of the Modern Marvels video, nor would they permit us to set up our own camera to record in parallel. So, I don't think any of that video is on the web.
The only other material of ours on the web (that I know of) is a sample promotional video for our Viking combat demonstrations at Higgins Armory Museum (from the days when the museum was doing television advertising). It's on YouTube here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNfdctVMemg
It's out of date, now. For the past 18 months, we've been researching the use of axes, so our demonstration is mostly axe combat now. If you're in the New England area, please stop in a see us. The demo schedule is here, and 30 January 2010 is a special Viking day at the Higgins, with a variety of lectures, demonstrations, and workshops throughout the day.
Best regards,
William Short
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T. Hamilton
Location: United States Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 85
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Posted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone have the recipe for that cheese glue they used in the video?
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Michael Doughty
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 30
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Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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T. Hamilton wrote: | Does anyone have the recipe for that cheese glue they used in the video? |
In the video, Stephen Etheridge was reading directly from Theophilus, On Divers Arts (De Diversis Artibus). I can't find a copy of that at the moment, but the basic recipe is here:
http://www.zetatalk3.com/shelter/tshlt21z.htm
Michael Doughty
Aldùlfr the Shieldmaker
Saxon Shield
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Michael Doughty
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 30
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T. Hamilton
Location: United States Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 85
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Posted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Michael Doughty wrote: | T. Hamilton wrote: | Does anyone have the recipe for that cheese glue they used in the video? |
In the video, Stephen Etheridge was reading directly from Theophilus, On Divers Arts (De Diversis Artibus). I can't find a copy of that at the moment, but the basic recipe is here:
http://www.zetatalk3.com/shelter/tshlt21z.htm |
Thank you so much! I am really into actual historic construction techniques, and now I don't have to compromise on the glue!
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Kristian Fagerström
Location: Sweden Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 13
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Posted: Wed 02 Mar, 2011 2:49 am Post subject: |
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I am interested in recreating a shield from 1280-1300, preferably a triangular kite.
I wonder if anyone knows of a surviving example?
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Johan Gemvik
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Posted: Wed 02 Mar, 2011 3:46 am Post subject: |
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An interesting thing I've found about boarded and cloth laminated shields is that if you only do one side it tends to curve as the linen shrinks with the hide glue as it dries. I find it's actually hard to make a shield not curve using this method, you have to glue both facing sides at the same time and clamp it flat.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Johan Gemvik
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Posted: Wed 02 Mar, 2011 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Kristian Fagerström wrote: | I am interested in recreating a shield from 1280-1300, preferably a triangular kite.
I wonder if anyone knows of a surviving example? |
Good to see you here old friend!
(It's Kristians old viking shield project that I noted the automatic curving effect on by the way, better come clean now he's also active on this forum. )
Kristian -Fynd av triangelsköldar från 1200-tal nämns tidigare i tråden, ett var specifikt från Sverige så vi kan väl spåra upp mer om det.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Kristian Fagerström
Location: Sweden Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 13
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Heh, yeah, I remember when I told you about the effect I noted when I glued it.
I just got mail back from a wonderfully helpful man(Stuart Ivinson) at the British museum who was kind enough to send me a translation of the relevant five pages in the
Nickel, Helmut. (1958). Der mittelalter Reiterschild des Abendlandes. Thesis (Ph.D): University of Berlin.
Good read. I'll post again after I've analyzed the material.
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Elling Polden
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Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Kohlmorgen's "Der mittelalterliche Reiterschild" is still available, and covers some of the same shields. It is still in german, however.
One persistent problem is that the positioning of the straps are pure guesswork. My impression is that both works do not take into account mounted/guiged use in their reconstruction proposals. On the other hand, no two high medevial shields have similar strapping arrangements, so it is pretty much up to the individual user.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Kristian Fagerström
Location: Sweden Joined: 03 Jun 2010
Posts: 13
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Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I should probably aquire the original, but for my purposes, the translation is far better suited at the moment.
I will use the seedorf shield as my basis for the shield.
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Jeff Williams
Location: Livermore California Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 2
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Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2011 12:27 am Post subject: Shields and Glue |
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Hide glue is as strong as the best modern glues-just not waterproof. So use lard to waterproof glued wood, leather and rawhide. Casein glue--made from cheese-- is as strong as modern Titebond II (USA name for yellow carpenters glue) and is waterproof. Shields with single curves could well be made from boards with matched planed edges (planes known from the Roman Age onward, glued with casein or hide glue: Plenty strong--glue joints stronger than the wood around them if the joints are straight and clean for a good match. Think Barrel makers, they have to have almost perfect slat edge to slat edge surface to become water tight. Barrels are know from Celtic Gaul (The Gauls used barrels in preference to the Mediterranean stoneware jugs) all the way to present: And the barrel-makers used pretty much the same set of tools right up to the present. If they can keep their beer in barrels, then they can shape a shield with good glue joints.
Not in the Face! Not in the Face!
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Petr S
Location: Czech Republic Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 5
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Posted: Wed 31 Aug, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: My kite shield |
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Hi everyone. I would like to share some experience with my kite shield.
It is made of the alder wood, covered by the rawhide on the front and linen on the back. The padding for the shield arm is made of the linen stuffed by the wool.
1. the wood core
My previous shields were made of pine and birch. The alder is by far the best of those 3. It is very similar to the linden (which I could not get at the time), soft, not brittle, yielding under the strike and light. It is great to work with, glues really well and does not crack. Central European pine crackles, the birch is the carpenters nightmare, it has interlocked grain and is quite heavy.
I made the core 1.5 cm thick, slightly tapering toward the edges. The curve was achieved by glueing together tapered planks (really easy to do) on a guide and then carving it to desired thickness.
2. rawhide
I've found that there is big difference between a "standard" rawhide you buy at the tanneries, which is splitted to have unified thickness, and a real rawhide, just dehaired and degreased. Few examples - standard rawhide soaks to be pliable and just right to put on the shield in appx.. 3 hours. The real one, after 3 hours does not even bend, and it takes 3 days to soak it to the right state.
I glued the rawhide on, using hide glue. Works like magic, you just need clamps and some planks to hold the edges in the right place. I put an extra layer on the edges, so after it dried up, is has rawhide about 1 centimeter thick on the edge and 0.5 cm on the face.
I painted it with mineral pigments in the linen oil (you can use the varnish for quicker drying) and added one extra layer of pure oil to make it waterproof. The shield spent the weekend in the mist and rain and still holds together without a problem.
First painting peeled of in few weeks, so I first painted whole surface with thin hide glue mixed the the chalk, and applied the pigments on this. This method works.
3. linen
I used heavy linen canvas, again glued on using hide glue. I have to repair it now and then at the edges where it comes off. It helps to hold the shield together and avoid splinters.
It is in use for 3 years now, in quite heavy fights, and still hasn't any major damage, just few notches on the edges and some bruises on the surface (made by poleaxe). It is reasonably light, sturdy and guards the left side quite well.
http://www.curiavitkov.cz
Reconstruction of Czech magnate's courtyard, 1150-1250 A. D.
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Johan S. Moen
Location: Kristiansand, Norway Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 259
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Posted: Thu 01 Sep, 2011 3:16 am Post subject: Re: My kite shield |
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Petr S wrote: | I glued the rawhide on, using hide glue. Works like magic, you just need clamps and some planks to hold the edges in the right place. |
Did you glue the rawhide while it was wet, or did you let it dry in place on the shield first?
Johan
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