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Russ Ellis
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 Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Gabriel Stevens wrote: | | From what I've heard from interviews and the like the original story was supposed to be a trilogy and Martin frequently quotes Tolkien's "The story grew in the making" of something to that extent. But Martin is also a vocal critic of the way that Jordan has let his series get out of hand so the new bar is for six books and I believe Martin said it will be six if he has to kill every single character to do it. I'm really looking forward to the fourth book but I think it is more important for Martin to do it right. From what I've read on his website he had to totally restructure his narrative after having already completed about half of the initial writing which was a huge set back. So I'm perfectly willing for him to take his time as long as the book is at the same quality level as the others. I personally love the fact that everyone is a potential target for the axe. I agree that there are a few that seem to be safe, but that may be only till the conclusion. For my part I remember loving the Wheel of time books up till about five and then I stopped reading them. After reading Martin's stuff I went back and re-read some of the wheel of time books and they just don't seem as strong as they did when I first read them or in comparison to Martin's work. Anyway I doubt that the book will be out in July as there is usually seems to be at least a six month gap between when a manuscript get turned in and the book goes to print for rewrites, editing, etc. |
<Shrugs> Could be, the girl and Barnes and Nobles just mentioned that they were supposed to get the next installment in the series in July. Maybe she meant NEXT July...
I'm glad to hear that Martin doesn't intend to drag us through 12 books or anything. I think that's Jordan's biggest problem he had his heart set on 12 books even if he only needed 6 to tell his story...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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D. Rosen
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| Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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I've read the available ones before, but I recently decided to re-read them. They're really good, and very enjoyable. I love the political intrigue, backstabbing, etc. Great read(s). When he mentions "Lobstered" armor, does that refer to say...Gothic style? or Perhaps something more along the lines of Maximilian plate? I find it interesting that some of the armor, etc. is unrealistic for a fantasy book! Gold armor? Covered in Enamel? Wha?!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks David!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: |
The Wheel of Time was good up until about book 5 or was it 6? I think it was The Fires of Heaven where Perrin and the village are making what looks to be their last stand and then suddenly the other villagers from the surrounding areas show up to save the day. I practically cheered. It's been all down hill since then though. I haven't even read the last two and could care less. At this point Jordan seems to be just a hack milking a cash cow. It's a shame really.
I'm all for the road trip. Did you want to bring the pinchers and hot irons or shall I? |
That's exactly how I felt about Wheel of Time. I haven't read the last two for those very reasons.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jeff Hsieh
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| Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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This is a good thread.  I am a huge fan of Ice and Fire and I take every chance I get to talk about it.
A few people here don't like the Dany plot very much, but it's one of my favorites. I really enjoy the brief glimpses that it gives me of the mysterious wider world beyond Westeros. There's a sort of "here be dragons" feel to it, and if you've read Martin's other sci-fi and horror stuff, you recognize a lot of "old friends" in the strange characters that Dany encounters. Also, Jorah Mormont is one of my favorite characters... a fierce fighter and a strong man, but fatally flawed in his weakness for female affection.
Jon Snow's subplot is great too, although I don't have that much attachment to his character. The Night's Watch fascinates me, and I am working (very very slowly) on putting together a kit for a Night's Watch ranger. I wonder if the Watch has always been made up of the dregs of society, or if in the distant past it might have been a great honor to serve in the Watch. And you can't forget the terrible legends of the Nightfort! The Sentinels in the Wall, the Rat Cook, Mad Axe... etc.
For some awesome Ice and Fire art, check out http://www.amoka.net/eng/news.html. The artist has portraits of almost every character in the series, and they are dead on.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I wonder if the Watch has always been made up of the dregs of society, or if in the distant past it might have been a great honor to serve in the Watch. |
Several times throughout the books Martin comments that the Night Watch was once an honored unit with high priority, and one that's fallen on hard times through the apathy of the southern kingdoms (something I think they'll really regret as the story progresses). I enjoy the Danyeris subplot since it lends a sense of diversity to the story.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of the Night Watch what's the theory on Benjen Stark? I still think he's going to put in an appearance somewhere... I wonder what he's going to think of working for his nephew... Also does anyone else think that eventually Snow is going to leave the Night Watch?
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 12:39 am Post subject: |
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The biig school of thought is that "Coldhands" riding the great Elk who rescues Sam Tarly and then meets Bran is Benjen Stark, possibly having been turned into a wight by the others but then rescued by the last remnants of the Children of the Forest - of course this being George Martin it's just as likely that Benjen IS dead and that Coldhands is a complete red herring! 
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce Wilson wrote: | | The biig school of thought is that "Coldhands" riding the great Elk who rescues Sam Tarly and then meets Bran is Benjen Stark, possibly having been turned into a wight by the others but then rescued by the last remnants of the Children of the Forest - of course this being George Martin it's just as likely that Benjen IS dead and that Coldhands is a complete red herring! |
Well I'd considered that, but the hints at least are that this cold hands person/thing is a Warg and Stark wasn't. Of course you could argue that some sort of wightly experience could change all that but...
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Agreed!! - with George Martin, ANYTHING is possible: expect the unexpected!  A good surprise plot twist keeps you on your toes!
Ned Stark's death I was expecting - the character is just TOO much like Leto Atreides in Dune for that not to happen to him! (in fact, once I'd made that mental connection, and given Maritin's description of Ned in the books, I now find it hard not to see Jurgen Prochnow's portrayal of Duke Leto when I picture Ned!). The Red Wedding on the other hand really caught me off-guard. There were enough hints though so I really SHOULD have seen something like that coming! 
Rather than posting the pics here, this is a link to the SFI thread with pictures of the Rick Barrett custom "Longclaw" that was discussed above:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t...t=longclaw
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Lloyd Clark
Location: Beaver Dam, WI Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Speaking of Jon Snow - here is another theory that is making the rounds:
The theory is that Jon is not Ned's bastard.
He is the bastard of Lyanna Stark ("promise me Ned...") and Rhaegar Targaryan. Recall that Ned went to save her at the Tower of Joy where he and a couple others (most notably Howland Reed who is the only other survivor) fought the best of the Kingsguard who were guarding the tower (which is curious in and of itself). There is also reference to her "bed of blood."
Speculation is that the "promise" was to raise Jon as his own. If Robert found out about Jon's Targaryan blood, he'd have killed him in an instant.
One would hope that Osha and Rickon are traveling south to the swamps (sent that way by Jojen and Meera Reed) where they will meet up with Howland Reed and some questions will be answered.
So what do you think?
Cheers,
Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Lloyd Clark wrote: | Speaking of Jon Snow - here is another theory that is making the rounds:
The theory is that Jon is not Ned's bastard.
He is the bastard of Lyanna Stark ("promise me Ned...") and Rhaegar Targaryan. Recall that Ned went to save her at the Tower of Joy where he and a couple others (most notably Howland Reed who is the only other survivor) fought the best of the Kingsguard who were guarding the tower (which is curious in and of itself). There is also reference to her "bed of blood."
Speculation is that the "promise" was to raise Jon as his own. If Robert found out about Jon's Targaryan blood, he'd have killed him in an instant.
One would hope that Osha and Rickon are traveling south to the swamps (sent that way by Jojen and Meera Reed) where they will meet up with Howland Reed and some questions will be answered.
So what do you think? |
Jaw hitting floor... very good... very very good. I never made the connection but it sure does tie up a lot of loose ends doesn't it? It would be really bizarre though having Jon as Daenarys's nephew... It would also explain how the always honorable Ned Stark ended up doing the dishonorable thing. When he's talking to Robert though doesn't Robert mention the mother's name? Hmmm... must double check...
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I wondered about that a while back too - then I discovered that it's quite a well discussed theory among GRRM fans! If Ned wanted to blind Robert he would at least need to come up with a name, so I don't think that alone would refute the "L+R=J" theory.
The young squire Ned Dayne tells Arya a similar story about the same woman (Wylla) when the two meet up in A Storm of Swords - but then a good cover-story has to have some substance, right?
Howland Reed would certainly seem to be the character that might know all the secrets - I wonder when we'll finally get to meet him?!. Maester Aemon at Castle Black is a Targaryen - I wonder if he knows anything he isn't telling? He's certainly very protective of Jon.
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Wait a minute though... it also mentions several times that Jon Snow looks an awful lot like Ned where the rest of the Stark children favor the Tully's... I guess you could say that Ned and his sister look a lot alike but...
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Lloyd Clark
Location: Beaver Dam, WI Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | | Wait a minute though... it also mentions several times that Jon Snow looks an awful lot like Ned where the rest of the Stark children favor the Tully's... I guess you could say that Ned and his sister look a lot alike but... |
Which again would suggest a child not of Ned's (all his children look like his wife's side of the family, which it would follow for all of his children).
Anyone know where Martin lives? He has GOT to get this book out 
Cheers,
Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Lloyd Clark
Location: Beaver Dam, WI Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, my coworker has sent me the following:
"all his children look like his wife's side of the family"
Not Arya. Never her.
Uncertain on Rickon.
So I stand corrected - If you are wondering I provided the link to our discussion for Drew to check in from time to time, just to correct me (if nothing else )
Cheers,
Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Bruce Wilson
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, and if i recall correctly, Arya is described in several places as looking more like Ned and Jon. She's also said to be a lot like Lyanna too - but that could be character as much as looks. There have been several hints about Jon but until the books are published we'll never know for sure. It wouldn't surprise me at all if part of Martin's major re-write was just to mess with the fans who'd beaten him to it and sussed out his original plans for Jon.
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Lloyd Clark wrote: | Okay, my coworker has sent me the following:
"all his children look like his wife's side of the family"
Not Arya. Never her.
Uncertain on Rickon.
So I stand corrected - If you are wondering I provided the link to our discussion for Drew to check in from time to time, just to correct me (if nothing else ) |
Well if it makes you feel any better I'd totally forgotten that bit to... If forgot that those two look alike. As a by the by who else would like to see Lord Walder Frey come to a particularly nasty end? For some reason I keep thinking of him as the Craster on this side of the wall... Also does anyone else think that Rob is going to have a son?
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce Wilson wrote: | | Yes, and if i recall correctly, Arya is described in several places as looking more like Ned and Jon. She's also said to be a lot like Lyanna too - but that could be character as much as looks. There have been several hints about Jon but until the books are published we'll never know for sure. It wouldn't surprise me at all if part of Martin's major re-write was just to mess with the fans who'd beaten him to it and sussed out his original plans for Jon. |
LOL could be.
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Benjamin McCracken
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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As for Jon. I think he is Lyanna's son from Rygar Targaryen. I have never really bought the whole Ned cheated on his wife thing. He just seemed to noble to me to do it. On the same note Ned does seem noble enough to save his sister's bastard child. As the son of Lyanna and Rygar he would have been hunted down and exterminated like the other Targaryens. This also gives Ned the noble duty to protect his nephew. This is just my two cents. I wrote this before I read Lloyd's post. It's nice too know that I may not be to far off.
In case you didn't figure it out yet George RR Martin is by far my favorite writer. I don't really mind the time he is taking with his books and I wish him the best in completing them is his vision. We wouldn't want Peter to hurry in making a sword design, only to turn out something sub par to what we know he is capable of doing. The same goes for Martin's work.
Ben
"Your sword is your shield!"
Christian Henry Tobler
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