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Ben Coomer
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 Posted: Thu 01 Jan, 2015 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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@Dennis
If we go by regions used in, then the Medieval European sword has at least the range and more than that of the spatha you listed. From the very tip of the British Isles to the Levant and from the West most of Europe to the steppes of Russia. Some would even argue that they or their very near descendents fought in the New World as well. And have a longevity from Dark Ages to the Renaissance.
So by your own measurements, wouldn't the Medieval Single hander be a good contender for most popular sword?
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Thu 01 Jan, 2015 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Rim Andries wrote: | To be honest I don't know enough about the Jian either to make a real argument here. Though I must say that lumping a bronze blade, an iron blade and/or a steel blade together in the same catergory feels kinda wrong to me. Then again if general shape and profile have remained virtually untouched...
Jeez this is hard... I love it already...oh, the struggle :)
Perhaps we have a Jian expert willing to chime in? |
There isn't just a single generic jian. The Bronze Age jian is quite different from the Han iron/steel jian and also from Song/Ming/Qing jian. (Can't say much about Tang jian since they appear to be close to non-existent.) There were jian of generally similar pattern from Song through to end-of-Qing (about 1000-1900, so 900 years). But they were a small minority of swords compared to dao, so not so popular. A better candidate than the jian for most popular Chinese sword would be the Ming/Qing dao - not around for as long (say, 1400-1900), but much more popular during that time.
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Rim Andries
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| Posted: Fri 02 Jan, 2015 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Dennis Courneyea wrote: | Here are some more to consider:
- The Western European Sabre, in it many variations. Thanks to industrialization the sabre must be a strong contender for the sword type produced in the greatest numbers. Sabres were popular from the late 18th century into the early 20th centuries, spread world wide by colonial conquest, and are still used today as a dress/parade sword in many militaries world wide. Though inspired by Eastern European Sabres, the Western European sabres evolved into a distinct sword type. The blades became straighter and more thrust oriented over time, evolving into slightly curved backsword like blades then into spadroon like blades. At the same time western sabre hilts became far larger and more protective than their eastern ancestors.
- The Eastern European Sabre and the Asian Tulwar, Shamsir, etc.. Highly curved swords with similar hilts used through much of Eastern Europe, Asia and the Middle East from the at least the early Crusade era through to modern times. Initially these regions were far more powerful than the agrarian backwater of Europe, and when Europe rose to global dominance the Europeans adopted rather similar swords (the sabres discussed above).
- The Roman Spatha. First used by (Celtic?) tribes who fought against Rome, then after being conquored fought as Roman auxillary troops. By the end of the Empire the Spatha had replaced the Gladius as the Legionaries side arm. After the collapse of Rome the Spatha remained popular with the Germanic tribes until the late Dark Ages, eventually evolving into the distinctive Viking and Anglo Saxon swords.
The Jian, Dao, Tachi/Katana, and single handed European sword were all used for a long time and had many variants; however, all were popular in a single region and never saw anything approaching world wide martial use. |
Good job representing the western sabre Dennis! I feel this blade deserves a spot, for all the reasons you mentioned.
Sir Dreamin'
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 02 Jan, 2015 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Rim, all this talk about the most popular sword may be sort of very hard to pin down, since one could also be very very general in using blade profile and design as the principle criteria in deciding the most popular sword type instead of using a specific culture, period or regional sword popular for a long time.
In other words if one makes the criteria very very loose one could say that the double edged strait blade of varying profile and length would be sort of " Universal " and used by almost all cultures over all time periods ..... but that is so vague that it would include every sword types, except curves blades .....  
On the other hand your topic made me want to buy a type of sword I had not purchased before and I just bought a Chines Dao from Kult of Athena: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...y+Song+Dao
Not a very expensive or high end sword, but my previous experience with buying a Kris cutlery folded steel Seax was that the heat treat and steel was of good quality.
So, you made me spend some money ...... It's all your fault ( Joking )  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Rim Andries
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| Posted: Fri 02 Jan, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Rim, all this talk about the most popular sword may be sort of very hard to pin down, since one could also be very very general in using blade profile and design as the principle criteria in deciding the most popular sword type instead of using a specific culture, period or regional sword popular for a long time.
In other words if one makes the criteria very very loose one could say that the double edged strait blade of varying profile and length would be sort of " Universal " and used by almost all cultures over all time periods ..... but that is so vague that it would include every sword types, except curves blades .....
On the other hand your topic made me want to buy a type of sword I had not purchased before and I just bought a Chines Dao from Kult of Athena: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...y+Song+Dao
Not a very expensive or high end sword, but my previous experience with buying a Kris cutlery folded steel Seax was that the heat treat and steel was of good quality.
So, you made me spend some money ...... It's all your fault ( Joking ) |
Hello Jean,
You speak the truth sir! I try to approach HEMA and general swordsmanship from an academic standpoint, but the twelve year old in me cannot resist asking these kind of questions. And I don't think that is a bad thing either, as it can often lead to new insights...
...or new swords
In your case I take full responsibility  I don't mind taking the blame for such a wicked dao! Hope you enjoy it!
Ps I still think the answer can be found. The thing is, I am not asking for something intangible like the most influential sword, which will be much harder to measure and it is impossible to agree upon. It is simply to subjective. Popularity on the other hand can be defined in numbers easily. Basically I'm asking which sword was used the most/longest. Whether we stick to general types or we go for specifics, there will always be a winner, even if margins are incredibly small and the field of research incredibly large. We could compare straight blades to curved ones. Or we could compare the rapier to the sabre. Or we could compare a certain spanish rapier of a certain age to a certain polish sabre of a certain age. As matter of fact answering one of those questions will help in answering the others. The challenge is ofcourse to agree with eachother on the terms and conditions. Like you said so yourself. That will be difficult indeed.
Sir Dreamin'
Last edited by Rim Andries on Sun 04 Jan, 2015 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dennis Courneyea
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| Posted: Fri 02 Jan, 2015 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Coomer wrote: | @Dennis
If we go by regions used in, then the Medieval European sword has at least the range and more than that of the spatha you listed. From the very tip of the British Isles to the Levant and from the West most of Europe to the steppes of Russia. Some would even argue that they or their very near descendents fought in the New World as well. And have a longevity from Dark Ages to the Renaissance.
So by your own measurements, wouldn't the Medieval Single hander be a good contender for most popular sword? |
Agreed. Medieval single handers may well have a better claim than the Spatha, but if the Gladius is on the list, I think the Spatha deserves a spot too.
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Nat Lamb
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| Posted: Sat 03 Jan, 2015 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Probably need to define the term "popular". If you meant what type of swords had the most units made, then it will probably be a more modern one (like renaissance or later) since swords became so much more affordable to make. If you mean what style accounted for the greatest proportion of swords made over the greatest range, then it seems like the Naue II might be the front runner.
I wasn't really that familiar with the type before, but looking at it, I can see certain similarities to swords from the Oakeshott type X (esp Albion's Vigil), shorter XI's and XIIIb's. Also seems to share similarities with some of the earlier, chunkier Jians... so maybe if you broaden out your categories then the most popular across time and place is dedicatedly single handed, double edged, cutting/slicing sword as close to 30 or so inches as your technology will allow.
just my 2cents.
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Rim Andries
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| Posted: Sun 04 Jan, 2015 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Nat Lamb wrote: | Probably need to define the term "popular". If you meant what type of swords had the most units made, then it will probably be a more modern one (like renaissance or later) since swords became so much more affordable to make. If you mean what style accounted for the greatest proportion of swords made over the greatest range, then it seems like the Naue II might be the front runner.
I wasn't really that familiar with the type before, but looking at it, I can see certain similarities to swords from the Oakeshott type X (esp Albion's Vigil), shorter XI's and XIIIb's. Also seems to share similarities with some of the earlier, chunkier Jians... so maybe if you broaden out your categories then the most popular across time and place is dedicatedly single handed, double edged, cutting/slicing sword as close to 30 or so inches as your technology will allow.
just my 2cents. |
Hey Nat thank you for making this even more complicated ; ) Have not looked at it that way. But now that I do, I think the answer is clear. The outcome is decided by the combined number of swords/years a type of sword was dominant or omnipresent on the battlefield and "on the streets". So it is a number of swords times number of years kinda thing
Sure the rapier or more likely the sabre will have been produced in much greater numbers for the relatively short time they existed, but will their combined numbers outweigh that of the Naue II? I think not.
Like you, I too believe the winner will be a short one handed straight cut and thrust blade. But which one?
Thanks for making your point though. It is a good one.
Sir Dreamin'
Last edited by Rim Andries on Mon 05 Jan, 2015 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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William P
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| Posted: Mon 05 Jan, 2015 5:44 am Post subject: |
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i would see a good measure of popularity is adoption and imitation
moving to armour for a moment, maille went from being a celtic invention, to being adopted en masse by the roman atrmy and become one of the most continuously used armour tyes on the planet, and the design being so successful that it was even developed independantly in japan in the form of kusari. that shows some SERIOUS popularity
similarly, byzantiine nomisma (gold coin) is like the dollar is now, originated in one place but many other places made their own versions of it in multiple areas of italy and frankia around the 7th century
which is why the chinese tang dao or the katana work as well, since the tang dao was copied many times by japan and korea
likewise the roman spatha was adopted by germanic peopls and evolved into the migration era sword and then the viking sword.
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