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Matthew Fedele
Location: Auburn, NY USA Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
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Posted: Tue 09 Feb, 2010 8:59 am Post subject: |
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In the Armourer and His Craft he sites this entry:
1567 S.P.D. Eliz., Addenda xiii, 101
Payments are made in this entry to paint black various corselets which had become "fowle and rustie" and had "taken salt water in the sea" at a charge of 5d. each.
Not positive if he's referring to maille in this case, but he sites russeting, blueing, painting, varnishing, and tinning done on harnesses, shields, and corselets.
If you don't create your own oxide layer, nature will do it for you.
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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James Head
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Posted: Tue 09 Feb, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Another possibility for Prince Edward's postumous epithet might lie in his alternate heraldic arms, or "badge of peace", that he wore for tournaments and such: sable, three ostrich plumes argent.
Beyond that, we need to be extra cautious in concluding much from the surviving iconography. Iron/steel surfaces were often depicted using silver pigment, much the way some other things are gilded. The problem is that silver oxidizes over time, turning an almost black color.
Cheers,
CHT |
Hi Christian. I hadn't considered that Edward's tournament arms might have earned him the name after his death. They certainly would have survived for a while and I imagine he had a high tournament attendance rate. When the heralds documented the various tourney results, did't they draw little pictures of each competitor's heraldry on the page? If this was the case I could understand why he might get the title since there was always a (mostly) black crest next to his name.
Also, thanks for bringing up the fact that silver oxidizes. We foget that the Statue of Liberty wasn't green when she was first gifted to the United States by France. Likewise, these lavish medieval illustrations were probably blindingly beautiful when all the silver and gold leaf was still burnished and bright. Has anyone tried to 'restore' a battle scene illustration to reveal what the image would have originally looked like?
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Samuel Bena
Location: Slovakia Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
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Posted: Tue 09 Feb, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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While looking through Ian Heath's Armies of the Middle Ages, volume 2 (1984) , I encountered an instance where Byzantine chronicler Doukas (according to Heath) describes Serbian cavalry serving under Ottomans at Ankara (1402) as "encased in black armour" Heath further speculates that it was rather mail than plate. It would probably be interesting to dig out the original reference though (whatever was meant by the original term "black armour" by Doukas)
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Dan Howard
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Posted: Tue 09 Feb, 2010 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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How likely are Serbians at the time to be wearing lamellar rather than mail? It was more common than mail earlier in their history. Leather was also a lot more common in this part of Europe compard to further west.
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Luka Borscak
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Posted: Wed 10 Feb, 2010 5:08 am Post subject: |
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We Croatians, Serb first neighbours, were completely westernized in terms of arms and armor and I'm quite positive that Serbs were to more western than eastern in equipment. So early plate is definitely an option.
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Samuel Bena
Location: Slovakia Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
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Posted: Wed 10 Feb, 2010 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Indeed Luka seems to be right in terms of Serbian armour.
A little OT: As far as arms go , the beautiful Fresco paintings (ranging from cca 1300 -1408) from Kosovo also show warrior saints with composite bows and quivers in which arrows are positioned "arrowheads up" which may indicate eastern Cuman/Kipcak influence. Towards the 1400 the number of sabres painted also increase , which again show the eastern (probably both mixed continental Kipcak as well as Anatolian Turkish) influences. Serbs enjoyed the advantage (and misfortune) for living in the border areas where the "east meets west" for quite some time.
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Sander Marechal
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Posted: Wed 10 Feb, 2010 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote: | Hmmm... how clean is mail generally after it's made authentically? The wire gets drawn and annealed repeatedly until it's the right thickness. If it's annealed after the last draw, it may be fairly black from the annealing phase, particularly after it's given a protective grease coating. That is unless the wire was cleaned up or drawn again after the last annealing (which should also clean it up a bit). |
According to the various riveted mail making guides out there, it usually needs to be annealed again after forming rings but before flattening them and making the rivet holes.
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Aleksei Sosnovski
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Posted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Steel gets black after being heated above 350 C. Annealing may be needed during making maille. We also know that some maille was heat treated. So after the maille is made it is most likely black (well, dark gray to black). However if we clean the maille (for example put it into acid or roll it in a barrel with sand) it will become mat gray. At least my shiny butted maille made of spring steel became mat gray after I rolled it in a barrel with send (and yes, it does remove rust very effectively!). Now what would experts say? Was maille cleaned in some way immediately after being made or not? If not, then it would most likely be black.
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Dan Howard
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Posted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Unless it was worn every day for a few weeks. That is all that is required to clean it.
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Aleksei Sosnovski
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Posted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Dan Howard wrote: | Unless it was worn every day for a few weeks. That is all that is required to clean it. |
Is it your personal experience? Or were there any such tests done?
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Ken Nelson
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Posted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps black versus bright armour was not a choice as much as a consequence, or cycle. I know of several methods for darkening steel which were used in the middle ages, but none of them, and none of the current ones I can think of, would be able to stay black with the constant rubbing of the rings. The insides of the rings would wear bright again the quickest, and the parts of the armour which saw the most movement would also brighten rather quickly.
Iron can be darkened by heating, acids, salts, or by letting it get a coat of rust, then removing the loose rust and steaming it. All of which are surface treatments, and as the surface wears, so does the treatment. I had not heard about the elm treatment, but I would guess that there is an acid in the bark, perhaps similar to phosphoric acid which is used for parkerizing modern metals.
There may also be a possibility of mail darkening and then being cleaned. A suit might be oiled to protect it when not in use. That coat of oil may then attract dust or smoke, if traveling over dusty terrain, or if the mail was hung or stored in a room without a good chimney. A suit of dark mail may result. not really black, but definitely darker than fresh iron, and darker than the blades carried alongside of them. A dark suit may even be seen a s a sign that it isn't used enough, or cleaned enough.
"Live and learn, or you don't live long" L. Long
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Jean Henri Chandler
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Posted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Matthew Fedele wrote: | In the Armourer and His Craft he sites this entry:
1567 S.P.D. Eliz., Addenda xiii, 101
Payments are made in this entry to paint black various corselets which had become "fowle and rustie" and had "taken salt water in the sea" at a charge of 5d. each.
Not positive if he's referring to maille in this case, but he sites russeting, blueing, painting, varnishing, and tinning done on harnesses, shields, and corselets.
If you don't create your own oxide layer, nature will do it for you. |
This seems pretty convincing evidence.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Dan Howard
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Posted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | This seems pretty convincing evidence. |
Not for mail it isn't. It is just a general reference to armour. I can't think of many historical rustproofing techniques that would surviving for long on mail that was being worn. Perhaps tinning. There are plenty of techniques that would work on mail that is being placed in storage.
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Dan Howard
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Posted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Aleksei Sosnovski wrote: | Dan Howard wrote: | Unless it was worn every day for a few weeks. That is all that is required to clean it. |
Is it your personal experience? Or were there any such tests done? |
It is based on examining extant pices of mail and observing the wear patterns. It is also based on wearing reconstructions and observing how the armour wears over time. I have never worn mail every day for weeks at a time and am not aware of any testing.
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Maurizio D'Angelo
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Posted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Using modern techniques for burnishing, chainmail resist a little.
Acid sweat, oxidizes burnishing, very fast. Modern burnishing , is part of the steel.
The black part of the annealing, in an ancient mail, was not part of steel, (like a film) comes off soon. After a few cleanups, the color becomes gray again, a little darker.
Ciao
Maurizio
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Jean Henri Chandler
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Posted: Fri 12 Feb, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Dan Howard wrote: | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | This seems pretty convincing evidence. |
Not for mail it isn't. It is just a general reference to armour. I can't think of many historical rustproofing techniques that would surviving for long on mail that was being worn. Perhaps tinning. There are plenty of techniques that would work on mail that is being placed in storage. |
That is the problem Dan, just because you can't think of it doesn't mean it wasn't done historically. In fact the two realms do not necessarily overlap at all.
The Japanese used to lacquer their mai armor as a form of rust-proofing (primarily) and decoration (secondarily) and they did this both with their own indigenous type of mail and with the European type they adopted later. So it clearly could be done.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Jean Henri Chandler
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Posted: Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Ariella Elema wrote this on another forum:
Quote: | Here we go, the reference I was thinking of is in Chrétien de Troyes' Cligés, which was written sometime in the late twelfth century.
The eponymous hero arrives in England and hears that there is to be a tournament near Oxford.
"He swiftly sent three of his squires to London and commanded them to buy three sets of unadorned arms, one black, another red and the third one green." (line 4600 ff.)
This might refer just to shields with heraldic arms, but a few lines later, Chrétien makes it clear that he's talking about armour too.
"Cligès ... sat on Morel [a name for a black horse] dressed in armour more black than the biggest mulberry. His armour was completely black." (lines 4662-4665).
Of course, it's always a bit risky to take romances literally, since they were meant to be fantasy literature. But apparently some people in the twelfth century thought it would be cool to have coloured armour. |
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Dan Howard
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Posted: Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | The Japanese used to lacquer their mai armor as a form of rust-proofing (primarily) and decoration (secondarily) and they did this both with their own indigenous type of mail and with the European type they adopted later. So it clearly could be done. |
Japanese mail doesn't have much in common with European mail. The weaves are different and it was almost always sewn to a foundation. The links do not rotate and wear the same as 4-in-1. Any kind of coating on Japanese mail will last a .lot longer than on a European example.
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Dan Howard
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Posted: Fri 12 Feb, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Here we go, the reference I was thinking of is in Chrétien de Troyes' Cligés, which was written sometime in the late twelfth century.
The eponymous hero arrives in England and hears that there is to be a tournament near Oxford.
"He swiftly sent three of his squires to London and commanded them to buy three sets of unadorned arms, one black, another red and the third one green." (line 4600 ff.)
This might refer just to shields with heraldic arms, but a few lines later, Chrétien makes it clear that he's talking about armour too.
"Cligès ... sat on Morel [a name for a black horse] dressed in armour more black than the biggest mulberry. His armour was completely black." (lines 4662-4665).
Of course, it's always a bit risky to take romances literally, since they were meant to be fantasy literature. But apparently some people in the twelfth century thought it would be cool to have coloured armour. |
Assuming the passage is referring to mail, there are two questions
What technologies were available that would enable medieval European mail to be coloured red, green, and black?
Is this coating likely to have lasted much longer than a single tournament?
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