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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > help identifying this flintlock Reply to topic
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,241

PostPosted: Sun 12 Apr, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth Bertschy wrote:
Thanks for all the great info. When my doctor showed me this gun, I knew next to nothing about flintlocks. I am quickly getting up to speed and learning a lot. Time to hit the used book stores for any books on the subject. Again, my doctor was given this gun by the son of a patient who said that his father would have wanted him to have it. The son said that his father picked it up at a gunshow back in the 40's in Minnesota. Now I'm hooked on muskets. I will keep plugging away at identifying the gun and go looking for one of my own to shoot. Maybe start with an inexpensive pistol kit to get my feet wet.


I have mentioned them before, but will do so again. Track of the Wolf has a terrific selection of books on this subject. I would recommend you check their site, www.trackofthewolf.com, for some reference materials. And, before it looks otherwise, I hasten to say that I have no financial interest in Track but have been a customer of theirs for nearly 25 years and have always been satisfied with what I got from them.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,241

PostPosted: Sun 12 Apr, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK...

I think I now know what this is. I spent a few minutes with my gun restorer friend this evening and he gave me some ideas that I am sure are correct, given his extensive experience.

First, it is almost certainly made from parts from several different guns. The difference in metals, i.e. an iron butt plate with the rest of the furniture being brass is one very strong clue. The military side plate is another. The trigger guard is civilian. The lock does not match a 1750 New England Fowler, most of which had English locks. This lock is almost surely Germanic. Upon closer inspection of the photos, the lock does look like a replacement which fits the mortise fairly well, but certainly not perfectly. But, the rifling in the barrel is the clincher.

According to my friend, who has run across these before, many guns like this one were made starting in the late 19th c., and up to and including the early 1960s. Some were made overseas and shipped here. I do remember that Dixie Gun works once offered a Belgian made smoothbore percussion gun with a back action lock which was made up on antique parts. They also once offered percussion Sharps rifles built on original actions with new barrels and forearms. But, I am moving away from the subject. The rifling of the barrel for an inch or two from the muzzle was done to give the gun the appearance of being a rifle, when of course it was not. The mechanics of loading a smoothbore simply do not allow rifling at the muzzle only to provide any sort of accuracy for a bullet fired from such a set up. The round, passing down a smooth barrel, will undoubtely move from side to side as it would if fired from any normal smoothbore. That would mean that when the ball finally got the rifled section of the barrel, the chances of the patch gripping the rifling dead center and imparting spin to the bullet would be next to impossible. In fact, when the bullet was rammed down the rifled section of the muzzle and dropped free in to the smooth section of the barrel, chances are it would part company with the patch. The bullet, when it hit the rifling, could also act as an obstruction in some cases, causing the barrel to burst. It is quite likely that the rifling in this gun was filed by hand by the person who put it together. One way to tell, if the owner will let you, is to run a large cleaning jag with patch down the bore. If there is any spin to the rifling, then the ramrod should turn, even slightly, from that little experiment. I looked back at the photo of the muzzle that you sent earlier, and those are very narrow walls at the muzzle and the grooves are very deep. Also the lands are quite wide, much wider than usually seen. The deep grooves simply would not be there after over 250 years of use which would wear down the lands.

My friend suggested that a way to tell if the barrel was ever rifled in the normal sense, would be to pull the breech plug and look toward the muzzle. Some evidence of now gone rifling should be there, for example chatter marks where the cutter hit uneven places in the iron barrel. He also suggested that the gun may have had a section welded to it, possibly the muzzle with the rifling, which could be seen more easily on the underside of the barrel, if you took it out of the stock, but which should be evident on the top side as well. Unbreeching would best be done by someone with experience with these guns, iow, someone who won't destroy it in the process.

My friend is very, very knowledgeable in these matters and has done quite a few restorations in his career. I would trust his judgment in this.

So, your friend has an interesting piece, and it, or at least its parts, are probably quite old. The styling does suggest mid-18th c., but this gun is almost certainly a relatively recent creation by someone who was not necessarily trying to defraud anyone, but did not go out of his way not to do so.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Kenneth Bertschy




Location: Tucson Arizona
Joined: 29 Mar 2009

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun 12 Apr, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the response. There is no spin to the rifling. It goes in for about an inch and stops and blends into a smooth barrel. I used a bore light to look down it and there are no vestigal rifling lands going down the barrel. The folks over at the muzzleloading.com forums are convinced that the gun has a french barrel, lock, and trigger guard and that the name on the lock plate and the rifling were added during the 40s to increase it's value by some unscrupulous vendor. You might want to give their responses a read:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/sh...t/new/#NEW
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,241

PostPosted: Mon 13 Apr, 2009 3:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth Bertschy wrote:
Thanks for the response. There is no spin to the rifling. It goes in for about an inch and stops and blends into a smooth barrel. I used a bore light to look down it and there are no vestigal rifling lands going down the barrel. The folks over at the muzzleloading.com forums are convinced that the gun has a french barrel, lock, and trigger guard and that the name on the lock plate and the rifling were added during the 40s to increase it's value by some unscrupulous vendor. You might want to give their responses a read:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/sh...t/new/#NEW


I did read them. While I don't agree with their id of the lock and trigger guard, the barrel may well be French. What they wrote does fall into line with my friend's ideas.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Kenneth Bertschy




Location: Tucson Arizona
Joined: 29 Mar 2009

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon 13 Apr, 2009 6:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am going to try harder to convince the doctor to get the gun appraised and to have the gun taken apart and inspected by a gunsmith who knows his way around a flintlock. I give your opinion and knowledge at least as much creedence as the good folks over at Muzzleloaders.com and I am intrigued by the idea that these guns were assembled from parts at such a late date. Are there any clues I can look for to ascertain that late a date for assembly other than the fake rifling? Does the name engraved on the lockplate look out of place to you or is that feature what you would expect to see?
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,241

PostPosted: Mon 13 Apr, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth Bertschy wrote:
I am going to try harder to convince the doctor to get the gun appraised and to have the gun taken apart and inspected by a gunsmith who knows his way around a flintlock. I give your opinion and knowledge at least as much creedence as the good folks over at Muzzleloaders.com and I am intrigued by the idea that these guns were assembled from parts at such a late date. Are there any clues I can look for to ascertain that late a date for assembly other than the fake rifling? Does the name engraved on the lockplate look out of place to you or is that feature what you would expect to see?


One thing my friend told me was that there was a cottage industry of sorts in the 30s and 40s which involved assembling guns from parts. In those days there was not much interest in the plainer guns that this one and others represent. The ornate guns and guns suitable for shooting were highly prized but the average, relatively plain gun, was not. So, there were a lot of them out there and a lot of them were considered sources of parts as they could be purchased for what to us is a nominal sum these days. And what a shame that was. He also said that a lot of movie props were assembled in these shops.

Dating any old muzzle loading gun is problematic unless you are familiar with the architecture and in what period it was produced. Guns actually varied considerably from the early 18th c. up until the golden age of fllintlocks in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Of course, except on very rare occasions, gun makers in America did not put dates on their guns, making it even more difficult. And, a lot of them did not even sign their work. It becomes necessary therefore to some how find out who the maker was so you can determine the time period in which he worked. Prior to the Rev. War period that is very difficult. Some of the "schools" of gun making from 18th c. PA and MD are well-known and it is relatively easy to i.d. work which came from one of the smiths who is known to have worked in the school. But there remain many guns out there which cannot be attributed to one maker or even one school. The best way to figure this out is study, study, study, every work you can get your hands on which deals with these guns. Join the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. Find an expert - I am not one of those, I am just a duffer.

To answer your question, the name on the lock looks out of place. It also looks a lot more recent than the gun so I do think it is a late addition. I read some of the comments on the other forum about the hardened lock plate. In the days when that lock was built, lock plates were not usually case hardened. It would be quite easy to add some engraving. In the 1750 time period, assuming this gun is meant to be from that era, the engraving would more likely be in script, not what look like block letters. English military guns had the type of script used for the "S Johnson" engraving on that lock plate. By the way, the other gun you pictured, from the auction site, has a military style lock, possibly from a British musket. That is not completely out of place on that gun, but it indicates to me that it was a replacement.

Any way, I hope this helps. Once you get into this stuff the bug will bite and bite hard. As I write this there are four flintlock rifles and one muskets leaning against the wall a few steps away. And, before I depart for Tir nan Og, I expect to acquire some more.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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