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E Stafford




PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2008 10:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

As far reason extrapolation from the present goes, I doubt humans will be doing much fighting in future wars. The military wants robot soldiers as soon as they can get them. Everything planned and calculated, executed with mechanical precision. That's about as far from the romantic ideal as possible, but so it goes.



I'm not sure about that. UAV's, absolutely. Assistants to the army/marines on the deck, yes. Advanced technology for the soldiers, yes.

The problem is, we're moving away from the Cold War style of fighting. Vietnam, Desert Storm One, Afghanistan, and now Iraq, aren't exactly fights in which we get to use our B-52's and extremely nasty cruise missiles. Boots on the deck and forget about air or artillery support (except helicopters and possibly mortars). Also, we don't accept the kind of collateral damage some of our more awesome bombers can generate. In fact, the only bomber we're using right now is the B1B. Basically, we're perching it above a city, and then when a sniper or someone opens up, the B1 will do one of two things: a low level, low mach flyby, popping flares, or, it'll drop a JDAM on your head.

The other problem with high tech is how reliant we can grow on it, and how easily it gets knocked out. In the case of a UAV squadron, it's going to be easier to have the techs and armament right there on site, and there are going to be plenty of them. Also, need some kind of a repeater. Knock that out, and there goes your air force.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 16 Nov, 2008 7:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:


As far reason extrapolation from the present goes, I doubt humans will be doing much fighting in future wars. The military wants robot soldiers as soon as they can get them. Everything planned and calculated, executed with mechanical precision. That's about as far from the romantic ideal as possible, but so it goes.



Just to correct the quote attribution in the previous post: This can happen if one deletes the wrong quote brackets in a post that has two or more posts from different people i.e. a Chain of posts and replies.

So the quoted text was one I commented on by Benjamin H. Abbott and not my post. Big Grin

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Joel Minturn





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PostPosted: Sun 16 Nov, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It seems to me that the reason the army like to use UAVs has more to do with the long loiter time than not putting people at risk. That a UAV can stay in the target area for several hours, being the eyes in the sky or looking for targets seems to be there big selling point.

As for artillery, isn't the US now using laser guided artillery shells? Drop a shell right were its asked for in a fraction of the time of calling in an air strike and a fraction of the cost of cruise missiles and faster time to target.

I would assume the next war could be "virtual". Think a war between countries fought online. Join the national hacker corp Happy
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Nov, 2008 9:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I should note that I accept the rather radical notions about technological progress put forth by Ray Kurzweil and company. I suspect artificial intelligence will match and then exceed human intelligence in the coming decades. These futurist predictions may be too optimistic, but by the time we're fighting war in space, you can be sure combat will have changed completely. Unless AI fails dramatically or we reject it as a species, I don't see any place for squishy human soldiers in battles amongst the stars.

What Joel wrote is key. You don't have to anticipate human-level AI to see the push to remove folks from harm's way. The US military runs commercials about unmanning the front lines. Imagine how much easier it'd be wage war without the body bags coming home. Furthermore, humans cost a lot. A great portion of the American military budget goes to people. Paying for medical care, pensions, and whatnot. Robots could be significantly cheaper. The political and economic advantages are irresistible.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Nov, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Well, I should note that I accept the rather radical notions about technological progress put forth by Ray Kurzweil and company. I suspect artificial intelligence will match and then exceed human intelligence in the coming decades. These futurist predictions may be too optimistic, but by the time we're fighting war in space, you can be sure combat will have changed completely. Unless AI fails dramatically or we reject it as a species, I don't see any place for squishy human soldiers in battles amongst the stars.

What Joel wrote is key. You don't have to anticipate human-level AI to see the push to remove folks from harm's way. The US military runs commercials about unmanning the front lines. Imagine how much easier it'd be wage war without the body bags coming home. Furthermore, humans cost a lot. A great portion of the American military budget goes to people. Paying for medical care, pensions, and whatnot. Robots could be significantly cheaper. The political and economic advantages are irresistible.


War never changes. Faced with a robot army, I will directly target my enemies civilian population. I'm here to kill, not scrap.

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Gene Green





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PostPosted: Mon 17 Nov, 2008 8:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Well, I should note that I accept the rather radical notions about technological progress put forth by Ray Kurzweil and company. I suspect artificial intelligence will match and then exceed human intelligence in the coming decades. These futurist predictions may be too optimistic, but by the time we're fighting war in space, you can be sure combat will have changed completely. Unless AI fails dramatically or we reject it as a species, I don't see any place for squishy human soldiers in battles amongst the stars.

What Joel wrote is key. You don't have to anticipate human-level AI to see the push to remove folks from harm's way. The US military runs commercials about unmanning the front lines. Imagine how much easier it'd be wage war without the body bags coming home. Furthermore, humans cost a lot. A great portion of the American military budget goes to people. Paying for medical care, pensions, and whatnot. Robots could be significantly cheaper. The political and economic advantages are irresistible.


Not once the other side starts using them as well. Then the hell breaks loose.

Getting back to the original subject:

- I would think in low gravity situations, any type of weapon that generates reaction force when launching a projectile (e.g. the recoil of a gun) would be a bad idea. No wonder lasers are so popular in sci-fi literature. Electromagnetic guns would be another good choice, if I understand the principle correctly there shouldn't be much recoil, if any. Or, if there's enough oxygen in the atmosphere, a flamethrower. And if you really want to go low-tech, in a low gravity situation, I'd take a good old slingshot over a sword at any time - a nice hit may not kill you but it just may send you flying a couple of miles Wink.
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Lou Weaver




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 5:01 am    Post subject: combat in low grav         Reply with quote

kaor everyone ! this topic has certainly generated a spirited response on various levels and i apreciate it. to sum things up it appears that once john carter or any other terran has adjusted to the low grav he would be hell on wheels. also,ballistic weapons will have greater range and even more if you factor in less drag from a somewhat thinner atmosphere. a local would be firing a weapon with equivalent recoil energy compared to a terran , a 4.8mm , 57 grain with a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps compares to the .30-06 at 150 grains and 2800 fps. bows and crossbows would be lighter but kar komak the boman from lothar would have perhaps a draw weight of only 75.8 pounds to match his barsoomian muscles ( 75.8 = 200 pound longbow for a terran hero's longbow ). mechanical strength would not change under lower grav. the arrow from kar komak's bow would travel as far on barsoom as would the arrow cast from the 200 pound bow on earth. will advanced weapons coexist alongside traditional ones? that depends on culture. if your race experienced total war and all it's horror then you might come up with a way around it. barsoom is a work of fiction but i will use it as an example. you start with a culture or cultures that believe in honor ( unlike our poor world ) and then the great drought begines lesding to a period of horrific conflict over resouces they nearly sucumb before uniting together to rescue the planet. durring this time the red race and its composite culture developes blending elements of orovar, okari and firstborn. part of this would be a set of stringet rules to prevent the escalation of conflict.the green race would be convinced of the wisdom of this as well (i have my own ideas about the history of the 'lajvari' but ask me later) . these rules would be rigidly enforced and violations punished . over the centuries and millenia it would become the naturalway of things! Big Grin
'...you know best the promptings of yor own heart. that i shall need your sword i have little doubt, but accept from john carter upon his sacred honor the assurance that he will never call upon you to draw this sword other than in the cause of truth, justice and righteousness.'
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Dan P




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I would think in low gravity situations, any type of weapon that generates reaction force when launching a projectile (e.g. the recoil of a gun) would be a bad idea. No wonder lasers are so popular in sci-fi literature. Electromagnetic guns would be another good choice, if I understand the principle correctly there shouldn't be much recoil, if any. Or, if there's enough oxygen in the atmosphere, a flamethrower. And if you really want to go low-tech, in a low gravity situation, I'd take a good old slingshot over a sword at any time - a nice hit may not kill you but it just may send you flying a couple of miles Wink.


On any kind of planetary body that had enough gravity so that you were not freely floating around (like the Moon for example) the recoil from a gun wouldn't really matter. A railgun or other device that used magnetics to fire projectiles would still have recoil. And a flamethrower would definitely have more propulsive force under these conditions than any bullet-firing hand weapon, but also consider that generally where there is no gravity there is no atmosphere (although David Drake did write an action novel about a dude who takes over a space station with a flamethrower).

The "Halo" book series has a few zero-gravity combat scenes. The protagonists are using assault rifles, and either use magnetic boots or a computer-controlled compensator that micro-pulses their suit's thrusters to compensate for the weapon recoil.

Oh, and the slingshot? If the rock you're slinging has enough force to knock a man-massed target a few miles, its going to do the same to you when you release it...
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
War never changes. Faced with a robot army, I will directly target my enemies civilian population. I'm here to kill, not scrap.


That's roughly the scenario the folks at CRN, the Center for Responsible Nanotechnology, fear. Molecular manufacturing could enable quick production of huge fleets of suicide bomber UAVs. War's changed a lot, a trend that shows no signs of stopping.

Quote:
Electromagnetic guns would be another good choice, if I understand the principle correctly there shouldn't be much recoil, if any.


I believe there would be about the same recoil as with any other projectile launcher. For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.

Quote:
If the rock you're slinging has enough force to knock a man-massed target a few miles, its going to do the same to you when you release it...


Yes, though in space, any acceleration could eventually take you miles. You'll keep going until something stops you, and there's nothing to stop you. But that would only apply to astronauts fighting in the void.
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Lou Weaver




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 12:20 pm    Post subject: combat in low grav         Reply with quote

it seems we are rapidly reaching a point where our technology and readiness to commit genocide will collide and leave who or what to start over.i pray to all the dead gods that our ra ce can come to a sollution that does noy leave the human race neutered and as passive as cattle. what is life with out danger and risk? war is a human thing for good or ill and by taking humans out of it and using robotics is not only cold and sterile but cowardly. that said let us ruminate on the subject of combat of a more sustainable and dare i say, honorable nature ? whould limmited warfare legitimize its use at the drop of a hat? perhaps keeping the bloodshed up close and personal is the correct path. i started this post as question concerning realistic combat under low grav conditions as recounted in literature,what more interesting realizations can we conceive of it?
'...you know best the promptings of yor own heart. that i shall need your sword i have little doubt, but accept from john carter upon his sacred honor the assurance that he will never call upon you to draw this sword other than in the cause of truth, justice and righteousness.'
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
war is a human thing for good or ill and by taking humans out of it and using robotics is not only cold and sterile but cowardly.


Maybe, but the US already does it. We assassinate terrorists in their sleep with missiles from UAVs. War has come a long way from the days when leaders fought and sometimes died alongside their troops. The old ideas about honor no longer affect the battlefield. I haven't heard any stories of military duels from Iraq.

Anyways, I imagine combat in low gravity would be more suitable for the flashy acrobatic maneuvers everybody outside of the martial arts community loves. Some of them might even be effective. Who knows? It'll be intriguing to experiment. If the species ever establishes a lunar colony, I imagine sparring would pop up eventually.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We're getting way off-topic folks. Comments on current US policy and on the human race's current proclivities are best discussed somewhere else.
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Douglas S





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PostPosted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan P wrote:

Oh, and the slingshot? If the rock you're slinging has enough force to knock a man-massed target a few miles, its going to do the same to you when you release it...


Traditional sling or rubber slingshot?
-With a traditional sling in zero-G you are going to - geez I can't even imagine it - you wlil need someplace firm to brace yourself. Once you get the stone rotating you might find yourself rotating around the stone as much as rotating the stone around yourself. I think. Haven't tried it.
-Rubber powered sling, the energy is stored between your two hands, so when you release it, there shouldn't be much effect on your momentum.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Douglas S wrote:
Dan P wrote:

Oh, and the slingshot? If the rock you're slinging has enough force to knock a man-massed target a few miles, its going to do the same to you when you release it...


Traditional sling or rubber slingshot?
-With a traditional sling in zero-G you are going to - geez I can't even imagine it - you wlil need someplace firm to brace yourself. Once you get the stone rotating you might find yourself rotating around the stone as much as rotating the stone around yourself. I think. Haven't tried it.
-Rubber powered sling, the energy is stored between your two hands, so when you release it, there shouldn't be much effect on your momentum.


Only if the rock has the same mass you do. Wink Big Grin

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Ed Toton




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Nov, 2008 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Back to swords in low gravity (such as Mars)... As others have already pointed out, the mass remains the same, though the weight is lower due to reduced gravity. But the part people usually forget about is that lower gravity also means lower gravitational acceleration. This I think would have the biggest effect on how you move. That is, the time it takes for you to come back down from a jump, leap, stride, or lunge will be longer. The way you move would have to take this into account, but I think with practice anyone would find this relatively easy.

In terms of the sword motion, you're mostly dealing with the mass of the weapon and your own limbs, and it wouldn't be that much different than on earth, except that upward motions wouldn't have to fight gravity as much, and downward motions wouldn't be aided by it as much. Again, I think it wouldn't take long for people to adjust to this either.

Firearm recoil wouldn't matter much in low gravity since the recoil is not strong compared to the inertia of your body.

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