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Chris Fields




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While using a staff with a center grip, the end of the staff that is no being used often comes into contact with the user's body. This is done to get a higher degree of control of the weapon and more power in strikes. So, that is why some may see this as a self mutalation devise.

If you look at the Ancient chinese Heaven-Earth Sun-Moon Saber, you'll notice the center shaft much wider that what this weapon has, as well as single edged blades. With the single edged blades, you can wield that weapon with the back side of one blade against your body with out being cut, however, you could not do this with double edged weapon.

This reminds me of when I saw Darth Maul for the first time on Star Wars episode 1. My first thought was... why would Darth Maul want a light saber blade on each end? Why not have the handle on one end, and lightsaber blade twice as long? To me, that would be a much more efficient weapon.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steel blades, sadly, aren't lightsabers. Unless a double-bladed sword had a razor edge and the wielder fought naked, being touched occasionally shouldn't matter. That said, I'm not familiar with the kind of techniques you're talking about. Looking through Talhoffer's poleaxe section, I only see a bit of staff resting against the forearm. You'd be very unlikely to cut yourself doing that with a double-bladed sword.

By the way, some of the rear points of Talhoffer's poleaxes look suitable for striking, at least against unarmored folks. I've always wondered about that.
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Dan P




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Sep, 2008 2:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks like that fellow did pretty well. Even if maybe its not an ideal weapon, its still a skillful display.
On the other hand, I'd like to have seen him try against opponents with longer two-handed weapons, or against a sword-and-shield fellow. Also, it seems to me that mostly he is holding ground while the "katana" people move in close for various slashing attacks- leaving their backsides and arms open to that second blade.
Personally in that situation, I'd avoid moving in, and use the greater dynamic range of my sword to feint and jab at targets of opportunity- such as the lower legs, fingers, hands, and forearms- reducing the mobility and weapon handling capacity of the target until I could get an opening for a finishing strike. Getting close to a weapon like that, where you can get whacked anywhere on your body from either side at any angle over and over again in quick repetition, seems pretty suicidal to me, unless you plan to grapple with the wielder and try to disarm and/or throw him but that's a whole different kind of game.
Anyway... good video, interesting weapon.
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Chris Fields




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Sep, 2008 4:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben, I wouldn't limit yourself to Talhoffer, especially since the weapon being used probably wasnt designed to be used from Talhoffer techniques. Look at almost any other martial arts techniques that incorporate a center grip on a staff. You wouldn't need a lightsaber blade to cut your self, as a lot of the moves, (trusts, and strikes) not only bring the opposite end of the staff toward or against your body, but also slide the staff along the body to aid in control and strength. A double edged blade would most likely cut you if it slid across your body, you would essentially be doing a draw cut on yourself.

Another thing to note, some of the more effective staff techniques are when the user grips the staff from one end, not in the center, like how one would use a spear. This is another point that would make a weapon of similar lenght, but with a blade on only one side more efficient.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Sep, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What source are you using, Chris? The only Western masters I know of that suggested the middle grip a staff were Christian Egenolph and Mair. None of their techniques seems particularly dangerous to attempt with our hypothetical double sword. You would definitely be limited by not being able change grips and slide your hands across the weapon's full length, but that shouldn't result in maiming.

Quote:
A double edged blade would most likely cut you if it slid across your body, you would essentially be doing a draw cut on yourself.


If you were naked, yeah. But I'm not familiar with such techniques. I draw the staff through my hands, not across my body. (In many moves, you don't need to do either.)
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Chris Fields




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Sep, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Again, you are limiting yourself to western martial arts. I am using my own 17 years experience in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc... martial arts staff work, and the techniques used in these styles in which the staff may contact the body. You would not need to be naked if I pulled a sharp katana or Albion over your arm. If you had on normal clothes, it would go right through them. It would probably go through a leather jacket as well.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Sep, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, if, for some reason, you had a razor-sharp double-bladed sword, why would you use such dangerous techniques when other similarly effective ones exist?

I mean, I'm sure I could impale myself on the rear spike of various polearms. I sometimes tap or poke myself when practicing with a staff. With a spike, that might result in injury. Yet Silver expected folks to use a staff with a wicked point on each end.
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Sam N.




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Sep, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Sure. I agree that a historical polearm, particularly one with a rear spike, would be more effective. But that's a rather different claim. When faced with new design, historical martial artists too often dismiss it as completely useless.

By the way, this sort of thing might have some historical basis in Chinese weapons. For example, consider Heaven-Earth Sun-Moon Saber:

http://books.google.com/books?id=SBENHIwJshMC...t#PPA47,M1


Uhh, has anyone taken a look at this?

According to the author a martial artist should: "...If he is tall or strong, he would take advantage of a long heavy weapon such as a large saber or halberd, which may weigh over 50 pounds."

Eek!
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Sep, 2008 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, it's a dubious source. Hence the might. In the author's defense, though, such absurd weights appear regularly in Chinese documents. Some folks will claim Guan Gong's weapon weighed over a hundred pounds.
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Chris Fields




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Sep, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I think they are converting their weight unit wrong into english lbs. Such weapons did exist, mostly coming from china.

Ben, spike ends and double edged blades are quite different. I can do all my staff techniques with spiked ends, but I could not do them with double edged blades. Most of the techniques I am speaking off you could not do with out having a part of the weapon against your body, or.. better to say you could do them, but with a lot less control and strenght.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Thu 25 Sep, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Why would it be a self-mutilation machine? I've never understood this view. Why would putting blades on a staff suddenly make it deadly to the wielder?


Because there's way too much blade and too little staff? I love a double-headed spear (or even a double-headed ox-tongue spear) as much as the next guy, and the buttspike or secondary blade would probably have saved my skin a couple dozen times if the free-play sessions with spear (and spear-and-shield) that I've been having for fun were done in earnest instead. But, when on an idle day, we painted much of the shaft silver and asked each other to treat the painted part as if they were sword blades...well, you just have to see the amount of hilarity we had from accidental self-mutilation hits in order to believe it.


Quote:
Do folks using a staff in middle grip routinely strike themselves? I don't think so.


I don't think so either. Can we be so sure with a two-bladed sword, though?


Quote:
Look, I prefer historically accurate weapons as much as the next guy. This preference shouldn't cause us to make excessive claims about modern designs.


Well, I did say that "the weapon is probably not the efficient self-mutilation machine I had expected it to be." Why do you seem to have so much trouble with that?

Remember, too, that it's quite interesting to note how this kind of double-bladed design practically never crops up in any surviving historical or archaeological records, at least not as practical weapons. Even the qiankunriyuedao--which I'd consider as being a very different weapon that's more like a double-ended spear than a double-bladed sword--does not seem to have been particularly popular in China. I was practically raised on various kinds of traditional Chinese tales as well as several modern wuxia fiction series and I don't recall seeing it being mentioned anywhere in those stories. It becomes even more striking when we note that some extremely complicated and difficult-to-master fighting styles and/or weapon combinations--like the European case of rapiers--are not only preserved but also treated at length in some surviving manuals!
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Fri 26 Sep, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder if durability would be an issue for an actual double-bladed sword, particularly one with blades the size of this RSW.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2008 12:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm. That one's a very interesting question. A relatively narrow (if thick) tang in the middle joining two broad bars of steel--that'd be quite a mechanical challenge for any smith that tried to build such a design in steel.
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2008 1:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The real sword (if there's any) of this piece was designed to be 2 Chinese Jian blades at the two ends. So it won't be very broad, but relatively thick. The RSW version has to take into safety issues so I built the blade rather broad to increase the padding available for impact absorption. But the real piece would likely to be two stout, narrow blades with a thick tang in between the handle. That's why it isn't very heavy.
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2008 3:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A interesting idea might be a double bladed sword made from two swords that would lock together with a bayonet styled catch and could be carried as two swords or used in the double sword configuration ?

A quick release system might be a nasty surprise if one could quickly change it into two sword fighting in the middle of a fight?

Obviously this would be a different concept as far as making it and the number of ways it might be used.

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