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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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 Posted: Mon 05 Apr, 2004 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Self-revelation |
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| Joel Whitmore wrote: | I appreciate your point of view Ciaran, but I disagree. Your scenario is possible given the climate in some parts of the world today. However, I think it's a rather pessimestic view. As a person of European descent, this is part of my history as well as part of the history of over 85% of the people living in my country. To ignore it out of fear that someone will misconstrue it is, to put it mildly, rather short-sighted.
| Quote: | We all dance around the grim realities of how there things sole reason for existing is to dismember, to dismbowl, to decapitate, to brutally slay other human beings.we avoid this topic to convince the outside world and passers by we are all benign historians and art lovers. Perhaps that’s what most of us are but it’s a cover that’s very very easily blown.
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Perhaps this is a little bit self-revealing on your part Ciaran. Without drifting into personal attacks, I think you view of us a lovers of the carnage swords can cause who try to hide behind a "cover" of being "benign historians" is offensive. If that's where your interests in swords lie, then so be it. I am appalled that you would generalize it to the entire sword-collecting community on here.
Joel |
Hi Joel,
I think we should think about Ciaran's point more carefully. What he wrote was not necessarily intended to show how he feels about swords, but how we might be presented in the public eye. It is all too simple for me to imagine in this day how politicians can make a point in their campaign to restrict violence and terrorism by in part restricting sword access (sales of, ownership, registration, etc.). Things none of us wants to deal with.
Let me just mention that a legal distinction (at least in some places) is made between "ceremonial swords" and "functional swords" and that "functional swords" are considered weapons and as such are forbidden from even bing kept at certain premisses, like certain HOUSING facilities (I am not talking about governmental buildings here). It is already out there, and all it takes is Joe Public to raise a voice, and we will have hell to go through. This might sound as an exaggeration, but the public (government) these days is very impatient with any violence or a risk of such. The preventative tactics are in. Ban, outlaw and restrict first, ask questions later. You try explaining to the general public that history and culture are important to preserve, when all they see is the damage a sword can cause.
I want to collect all the swords I want and can afford, I want to practice WMA without having to worry about the public looking over my shoulder. Now with every weapon, there comes responsibility for safe use, and I am by no means advocating that we avoid detection so that we can do whatever we want whenever we want it without care and concern.
All this being said, I do enjoy the increasing popularity of the medieval arm and armor. I do like the abundance of books videos and discussion groups. And the beauty of it all, is that only the ones that care come to join and learn about it. I know from much personal experience, that it is very hard to teach, educate, and explain things to someone who does not care, or already has a formed opinion on the subject (especially bad when morals are involved).
All in all, my opinion is as I stated in a previous post: make sure the info is there and accessible, but let people come and find us and ask for knowledge, before we decide to educate them.
My subjective take on things,
Alexi
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 05 Apr, 2004 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | Joel,
I think Ciaran was mostly just trying to say that he would rather fly under the radar because if people recognize the deadly capabilities of swords they may start lumping them in with guns and other weapons as awful things to be banned at all costs. He may very well be right. One only has to look at restrictive knife laws (I'm avoiding guns as there are tons of threads on that issue elsewhere) around the country to realize that edged weapons can be banned just as easily as firearms and for many of the same reasons. People do not really care what your motivations for having them are. All it takes is one group or politician to start demonizing swords and sword owners and there will be plenty of sheep involved to bleat that the nasty sharp pointies should be done away with. It should be noted that the NRA has desperately tried to educate the public for years about firearms with no real success. Fear mongering is much easier. |
Ciaran does make a valid point, however, it isn't a realistic viewpoint from the standpoint of continued growth. Any hobby or endeavor has to have publicity and exposure if it is going to grow and prosper. The internet itself has been a real boon (and sometimes a curse) to our hobby. We now have far more companies making swords than we did just a few years ago, and individual makers have come to light that were previously unknown to all but a few. If we had simply chosen to fly below the radar none of this would be happening. We wouldn't be experiencing the renaissance that we now enjoy if we hadn't been actively trying to educate and promote. While this viewpoint does have a basis in fact it can only lead to stagnation and decline.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 05 Apr, 2004 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: |
Alexi, merely having a dessenting opinion is not likely to get you banned here. Have a little more faith in Nathan and the moderating team guy. 
As for the quotes that you have above... I can't say that I own that particular book although isn't it one of the little ones mostly intended for children? In any respect I don't know that he's that badly off base. In the first two quotes he's referencing pole arms not swords at all and I depending on the mail type that doesn't seem totally fanciful to me. One only has to look at the forensic evidence from Towton or Visby to see that mail certainly was not proof against terrible slashing wounds.
Others have talked about the sharpness of medieval swords, they were in fact rather sharp and although as sharp as a razor might be a bit of hyperbole it's not by much.
As for the last quote again look at the forensic evidence available. Although not everyone was getting split open crown to waist losing limbs and other body parts is very feasible especially with substandard or partial mail. |
Hi Russ,
I did not mean to have dissenting opinion, just voicing my concern about exaggeration. I was afraid of being banned because I dared say that Oakeshott should have been more careful when stating things. And since Oakeshott is so important.......... 
(I might be getting off-topic here) You are absolutely right , that any of these above mentioned events might happen under given circumstances, but since it might not ALWAYS be the case, I thing the statements should read differently.
This book is, indeed, one of the small ones, but I do not know if it is intended for children (it is not very complicated or detailed), BUT another book form the same series reads differently,and lacks these kinds of exaggerations. Go figure!
Thanks for your polite reply, I expected some one to come down hard on me for posting that!!!
Alexi
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Mon 05 Apr, 2004 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Mr Flanagan. He is trying to see ourselves as others (may) see us. As for the general points about education, I think 'the truth about swords' is so far down the priority list of what people need to know (and obviously don't) as to be insignificant. If people want to know, it is there for them to sift from the dross, as with almost any other body of knowledge. I don't feel the need to actively educate or proselytise (lazy Brit).
Regards to all
Geoff
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Kenneth Enroth
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| Posted: Mon 05 Apr, 2004 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Hey this is quite interesting. Let's see how the eastern martial artists do it. The ARMA guys is on the right track. You have to start with swordsmanship as a martial art to make it respectable.
You have to have a respectable foundation. That is found in the fechtbuchs and real tangible martial arts practice. Then the area is removed from some hazy fantasyland and populated with real faces and real history. You could also encourage study of history in conjunction with the practice. All this will give a serious academic flair. It is in the swordsmanship that the real flavor of the history can be appreciated and and only in the context of real historical swordsmanship will the sword be appreciated for what it really is. Without it's context the sword may well be percieved as a slightly nutty thing. Within it's context it comes to life.
You have to get serious people as practicioners. It would be great if some famous people would take it up and endorse it. Imagine if Arnold Schwarzenegger for ex. would take up this hobby and start to endorse it. "Great excercise, great martial art full of dedicated, serious people. A real joy to work out there and learn about my european heritage" he would say. People would flock to take classes and it wouldn't be nutty anymore. Arnold is fond of martial arts so who knows.
It's important to get new people in, serious people, respectable people. Then it will automatically be taken seriously. Leave the silly people to founder about in their fantasy world.
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David McElrea
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I'd also question the relative value of trying to educate the public at large. I love swords in themselves and in their admittedly archetypal reflections of the past-- for me, I want to "know". If swords come up in conversation I am happy to educate insofar as I am able. The truth about swords is important to me insofar as my interests lie there-- they mean nothing to most people, and I see no problem with this. I don't want to know the merits and demerits of early 20th century German automobile engines vs American engines, although for the more mechanically minded this might seem to be a really important discussion.
The resources are out there and if someone wants to learn about swords they can do so. They can find their way to forums like this and grow in knowledge in the same way we do.
Geoff wrote that : | Quote: | | 'the truth about swords' is so far down the priority list of what people need to know (and obviously don't) as to be insignificant |
That sums it up really well for me--I think Geoff and I would both be as keen as most on the "art and science" of the sword, but lets be honest... "we need to educate the masses"-- Why do we need to? Will the world be a better place?
David
Last edited by David McElrea on Mon 05 Apr, 2004 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 05 Apr, 2004 10:49 am Post subject: |
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I don't know Patrick, I agree that to a large degree the hobby has experienced real positive growth over just the last six years that I've been involved. (Coincidence?  ) However I also think to a large degree that the hobby as a whole is still very much under the radar, and will probably continue to be until someone decides to take issue with the hobby. Conflict and bad news are more noteworthy then solid citizenship and education unfortunately. Personally I think that's probably inevitable. The best we can do is be good solid citizens in the community and keep flakiness down to a minimum. Unfortunately the hobby itself does not lend itself to that as there are certain amounts of fantasy and romance involved by the hobby's very nature. However I will say that I'm in no huge hurry to be announcing from my rooftop that here there be swords.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Mon 05 Apr, 2004 11:23 am Post subject: Step back for a moment |
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I appreciate the fear that banning swords may occur. However, historically speaking, most bans throughout history have come to be through ignorance. I firmly believe that educating people, even if there is a risk, is the key to people seeing us in a positive light. In the US, swords are already available to every moron who has money to buy one and has a clean criminal record. Just this year and the past there have been incidents where swords were used to commit crimes and stop them. I hear of no one crying for banning. Of course it could happen. With ren fair attendance increasing, people more and looking to fidn out about what they see as a romantic time ( and in some ways it was), I think we have a plum opportunity to edcate people about what we do and why we do it. I would not waste this opportunity for fear. Plain and simple. If you are literate, knowledgable and passionate, people will respond to what you do and find somethnig interesting in it. When you have that you can educate and grow. This spills over into other areas too. We already talked about TV and movies. But just look at how many of the historical texts have been translated. They have been published fro us not because they should be, but because there is a market and a publisher has a chance to make a profit. We also profit inteh knowledge shared. Just think if we interest 5 or sxi young people each how far this could go. They may nt ever buy a sword or spar or join an organization. But they may buy those texts to read which could lead to others being published. I think that there is way more of an upside than down side and I will never "fly below the radar" for anyone who is curious about my hobby.
Joel
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 05 Apr, 2004 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | | I don't know Patrick, I agree that to a large degree the hobby has experienced real positive growth over just the last six years that I've been involved. (Coincidence? ) However I also think to a large degree that the hobby as a whole is still very much under the radar, and will probably continue to be until someone decides to take issue with the hobby. Conflict and bad news are more noteworthy then solid citizenship and education unfortunately. Personally I think that's probably inevitable. The best we can do is be good solid citizens in the community and keep flakiness down to a minimum. Unfortunately the hobby itself does not lend itself to that as there are certain amounts of fantasy and romance involved by the hobby's very nature. However I will say that I'm in no huge hurry to be announcing from my rooftop that here there be swords. |
I'm not suggesting that we shout anything from anyones rooftop. In fact, it's my opinion that the intial post in this thread is taking our hobby far too seriously. After all it is *just* a hobby. As I have often said in the past, we aren't curing cancer or inventing the longer lasting lightbulb. Trying to start some kind of crusade for sword education will only make our fringe intrest seem all the more obscure to those with no interest in it.
On the other hand, I feel that a bunker mentality is as equally counter productive if not more so. "Don't say anything or the government might notice us!" is an attitude that exudes paranoia. If the big bad government wants you sports fans they already know where to find you.
Everyday I deal with people from one end of society to the other, probably more so than most here. One thing that I'm sure of is that the majority, regardless of station or status, don't really want to learn. They're more interested in supporting their own position, right or wrong. In years past how many of us spouted off with "facts" that we were sure of as the truth, only to find out later that we were totally wrong? Probably all of us, but I bet we couldn't be convinced otherwise at the time though. If people have an interest in the facts they'll find them on their own without any overt help from us. The best that we can do is to provide a jumpimg off point for their journey.
At the same time we shouldn't live in abject fear of the big government booger man.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 05 Apr, 2004 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well that's good because I was really worried about what the neighbors would say...
I agree that we tend to get wrapped up in things a bit. Basically there are two sorts of people that come over to my house, those that I'll bring out the swords for them to ooo and ahhh over and those that I don't. Some people can appreciate them and some can't. I enjoy this community and will do anything and everything I can reasonable do to help it along. However I don't feel compelled to go "preaching to the heathen" as it were. If any of the heathen are interested they will come looking.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Ciaran Flanagan
Location: Dublin, Ireland Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Tue 06 Apr, 2004 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Self-revelation |
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| Joel Whitmore wrote: | I appreciate your point of view Ciaran, but I disagree. Your scenario is possible given the climate in some parts of the world today. However, I think it's a rather pessimestic view. As a person of European descent, this is part of my history as well as part of the history of over 85% of the people living in my country. To ignore it out of fear that someone will misconstrue it is, to put it mildly, rather short-sighted.
| Quote: | We all dance around the grim realities of how there things sole reason for existing is to dismember, to dismbowl, to decapitate, to brutally slay other human beings.we avoid this topic to convince the outside world and passers by we are all benign historians and art lovers. Perhaps that’s what most of us are but it’s a cover that’s very very easily blown.
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Perhaps this is a little bit self-revealing on your part Ciaran. Without drifting into personal attacks, I think you view of us a lovers of the carnage swords can cause who try to hide behind a "cover" of being "benign historians" is offensive. If that's where your interests in swords lie, then so be it. I am apalled that you would generalize it to the entire sword-collecting community on here.
Joel |
Hi Joel,
What I wrote was a counter argument that was attempting outline the possible negative side to an attempt to educate the masses in regards to sword collecting and appriciation. I was attempting to highlight pitfalls and imagine how we may be percieved by the public at large.
Regarding your personal attack (please note that just because you wrote "without drifting into personal attacks" doesnt in any shape or form make it any less of a personal attack) yes, I do to some extent beleive that in some way we all use the front of benign historian to some extent. When I hold a sword I feel powerfull. When Im sparring I feel the adrenilin. Yes, I have boyish fantasys of being a warrior of old. Are you trying to tell me you dont feel the same? You feel nothing for your swords but an academic interest? Swords in no shape or form stir your soul? When Targeting tatami you totally dissassociate the fact that tatami is used to approxamate a human limb? You dont watch Sword movies and didnt sit in awe while watching the opening sequence of conan?
If the answer to all the above questions is absolutly not, That your interest in swords is purely academic then I take your point and I humbly admit that It was an unfair gross generalisation. If however you do feel soemthing of the carnal side of swords and swordsmanship then I thank you whole heartedly for providing a living illustration of my point that we try to do our damdest to hide behind a facade of pure acadamia for our own protection.
One last point, you said "As a person of European descent, this is part of my history as well as part of the history of over 85% of the people living in my country. To ignore it out of fear that someone will misconstrue it is, to put it mildly, rather short-sighted. "
Im Irish, Born and raised in ireland, I am a european. You, however much you want to be, are not. You get what Im saying here so we will leave it at that.
Ciaran
Ciaran
A wise man is someone who has travelled to heaven and hell and knows the difference.
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Scott Bubar
Location: New England Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Tue 06 Apr, 2004 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote: | ... | Quote: | Originally posted by Scott Bubar:
Hey, Ruel--the "Belly-Dancer Armed" link doesn't work! |
Gimme two weeks and I'll have something up. In the meantime, you can look at pix of some rather lovely bellydancers armed with various blades at these two pages:
Tribal Bellydance
Cabaret Bellydance
(And of course, if you have any pix of your own fitting into this theme, send them my way!)  |
Thanks, Ruel.
Nothing like some visual aids to enhance the educational process.
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Ciaran Flanagan
Location: Dublin, Ireland Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Tue 06 Apr, 2004 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
Ciaran does make a valid point, however, it isn't a realistic viewpoint from the standpoint of continued growth. Any hobby or endeavor has to have publicity and exposure if it is going to grow and prosper. The internet itself has been a real boon (and sometimes a curse) to our hobby. We now have far more companies making swords than we did just a few years ago, and individual makers have come to light that were previously unknown to all but a few. If we had simply chosen to fly below the radar none of this would be happening. We wouldn't be experiencing the renaissance that we now enjoy if we hadn't been actively trying to educate and promote. While this viewpoint does have a basis in fact it can only lead to stagnation and decline. |
I Totally agree with you on that patrick, Things are progressing nicely and this truely is what may be considered a golden age or rennassaince in the are of sword collecting and appriciation. Hopefully It will grow and more people will take the hobby which means that there will be more supply as demand rises.
I dont, like the rest of us, want to see it die out of fear of how the public will react but I do believe that the origional idea in this thread, that we should be more proactive in promoting our hobby is frought with nasty pitfalls and we should be vigilent. Sometimes its best to leave the course unchanged if the wind is blowing in your favour as trying to speed the ship up may unintentionally leave us beached or shipwrecked.
The fact that I and all of us participate on forums such as these is us doing our bit to guide people in the right direction. Anyone who wants to learn will find us without any problems. Those that are thirsty for knowledge will find we have plenty of good wine to offer and a lot of us work at maintaining and running these forums. We all contribute so we are all doing our part. With the help of these forums many reams of litrature are being produced. There are some new books coming out written by people who got aqquainted on the various forae. Things really are moving along nicely and in my own way Im also trying to help it move along as well.
So I have to disagree that my viewpoint earlier could lead to stagnation and decline. I Just think that a pro-active recruitment/educational drive could have negative consequences as it is us activly walking the gauntlet of public interpretation about what we are doing and we cannot change the fact that some people can and will paint what we do in a overly negative light.
We are all doing our parts merly by posting and halping out on the various forae and so long as we keep it up the growth will continue as those that show an interest in learning find us and are enlightened. I see no point in trying to make people who essentially have nothing but a passing interest understand or appriciate what we do.
Ciaran
(very poetic some of that eh?)
Ciaran
A wise man is someone who has travelled to heaven and hell and knows the difference.
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Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Tue 06 Apr, 2004 4:42 am Post subject: Re: Self-revelation |
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| Quote: | Hi Joel,
What I wrote was a counter argument that was attempting outline the possible negative side to an attempt to educate the masses in regards to sword collecting and appriciation. I was attempting to highlight pitfalls and imagine how we may be percieved by the public at large.
Regarding your personal attack (please note that just because you wrote "without drifting into personal attacks" doesnt in any shape or form make it any less of a personal attack) yes, I do to some extent beleive that in some way we all use the front of benign historian to some extent. When I hold a sword I feel powerfull. When Im sparring I feel the adrenilin. Yes, I have boyish fantasys of being a warrior of old. Are you trying to tell me you dont feel the same? You feel nothing for your swords but an academic interest? Swords in no shape or form stir your soul? When Targeting tatami you totally dissassociate the fact that tatami is used to approxamate a human limb? You dont watch Sword movies and didnt sit in awe while watching the opening sequence of conan?
If the answer to all the above questions is absolutly not, That your interest in swords is purely academic then I take your point and I humbly admit that It was an unfair gross generalisation. If however you do feel soemthing of the carnal side of swords and swordsmanship then I thank you whole heartedly for providing a living illustration of my point that we try to do our damdest to hide behind a facade of pure acadamia for our own protection.
One last point, you said "As a person of European descent, this is part of my history as well as part of the history of over 85% of the people living in my country. To ignore it out of fear that someone will misconstrue it is, to put it mildly, rather short-sighted. "
Im Irish, Born and raised in ireland, I am a european. You, however much you want to be, are not. You get what Im saying here so we will leave it at that.
Ciaran |
Very interesting discussion and ,on many levels, enlightening.
Joel[/quote]
Last edited by Joel Whitmore on Tue 06 Apr, 2004 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ciaran Flanagan
Location: Dublin, Ireland Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Tue 06 Apr, 2004 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Scott Bubar wrote: | | Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote: | ... | Quote: | Originally posted by Scott Bubar:
Hey, Ruel--the "Belly-Dancer Armed" link doesn't work! |
Gimme two weeks and I'll have something up. In the meantime, you can look at pix of some rather lovely bellydancers armed with various blades at these two pages:
Tribal Bellydance
Cabaret Bellydance
(And of course, if you have any pix of your own fitting into this theme, send them my way!) |
Thanks, Ruel.
Nothing like some visual aids to enhance the educational process. |
My darling mother teaches bellydancing. I cant look at bellydancers lustfully at all, damn her!!!!!!!!!!!
C
Ciaran
A wise man is someone who has travelled to heaven and hell and knows the difference.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 06 Apr, 2004 5:41 am Post subject: |
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This thread has illustrated an interesting catch 22 . When I posted my response it was from a manufacturers perspective.
As a manufacturer the better eductaed people are the more likely they will be to put down the MRL/Noble Collection
catalog and look to us or Historic Enterprises or Albion or A&A . The internet and the wealth of information its mad e
avaliable have been a boon for makers via a larger learned customer base . However Partrick and Ciara have a good
point . Due to the panicy(sp) nature of people they will cough up personal freedoms in a heart beat under the guise
of "public safety " when "Maude Flanders " opens her mouth and a politician looking to appear "proactive " hears her .
Its kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't . Stay quiet and stay un-noticed , disseminate more information
and more and better toys are avaliable but the odds go way up on getting "noticed " .
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Tue 06 Apr, 2004 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Remember SPATHA, The Society for Promotion of Authenticity in the Teaching of Historical Arms? Weren't their goals the same as those being declared in this thread? I wonder what happened to them. They have a semi-exclusive forum over at The Other Place, but nothing happens inside it, no one posts there.
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 06 Apr, 2004 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Their name was too long. I really think if you want to be serious about educating the masses you have to have funding. Corporate sponsorships are going to be a bit hard to come by I think. Government grants also are probably out.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Bob Uhl
Location: Denver, Colo. Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed 07 Apr, 2004 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Self-revelation |
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| Joel Whitmore wrote: |
| Quote: | We all dance around the grim realities of how there things sole reason for existing is to dismember, to dismbowl, to decapitate, to brutally slay other human beings.we avoid this topic to convince the outside world and passers by we are all benign historians and art lovers. Perhaps that’s what most of us are but it’s a cover that’s very very easily blown.
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Perhaps this is a little bit self-revealing on your part Ciaran. Without drifting into personal attacks, I think you view of us a lovers of the carnage swords can cause who try to hide behind a "cover" of being "benign historians" is offensive. If that's where your interests in swords lie, then so be it. I am apalled that you would generalize it to the entire sword-collecting community on here.
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I'm not certain that's what he's really writing. A sword is a weapon; its reason for existence is to kill, and not in a terribly tidy fashion. It so happens that swords can also be quite beautiful. But who doesn't feel a thrill when he wields a sword?
As for the danger of swords being banned, they already are in some parts of Australia, the US and IIRC Italy; probably many other places as well. I tend to think that, in the US at least, we've already reached the zenith of the ban-everything-that-moves culture, and that in the upcoming decades we'll see things become more, not less, relaxed.
Publicity can help us or harm us. If folks see a bunch of serious, respectable fellow citizens with a safe & interesting hobby, then I can imagine that they'll be cool with it. But there are always the Concerned Busybodies of America to worry about, nonetheless
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Allen W
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| Posted: Wed 07 Apr, 2004 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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I see your point Bob but I think we're seeing more of a trough than anything else. The underlying trend denying the fundamental reponsibility of the individual for their actions continues.
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