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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Northern VA,USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Apr, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Myers wrote:
A.J. Corbesier's "Principles of Squad Instruction for the Broadsword" is for sabres, IIRC, though I think he was American?

Also, didn't Burton use the term broadsword as well in his "New System of Sword Exercise for Infantry"?

Francis Vere Wright uses the term Broadsword when he writes about the Italian sabre.

Allanson-Winn and Phillipps-Wolley use the term broadsword in reference to the sabre in "Broad-Sword and Single-Stick" and they were English.

There are plenty of others as well, those are just the ones I recall off the top of my head.

(Edited for spelling)


There is also Henry Angelo's Hungarian and Highland Broadsword, which is found in The School of Fencing, where the broadsword illustrated is clearly a saber.

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"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

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PostPosted: Fri 25 Apr, 2008 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
I stand corrected... I don't know why, I could not remember seeing "poignée" in my French books about swords, even though I knew the term "fusée". I'll have to check where I got this confusion...


So I looked into my dear old books from childhood and indeed what I was thinking stems from them... One shows a picture of a rapier hilt with the names of all parts (including fusée, quillons, pommeau etc.) with the title Parties de la garde de l'épée, so in this one garde = hilt. Another does not give a general name for the whole hilt, but the arrow with poignée points to the handle specifically. The last one does not mention poignée at all, but calls the whole hilt la monture. Which would probably be better translated as 'fittings' in English, which is yet another term. I don't know if we really can blame the general dictionary for the confusion Big Grin

If I had to trust just one it would be the last one...

To conclude I don't think it's reasonable to try and build a terminology and translations in every language. The history and meanings of all the terms is just too complicated to keep a coherent terminology accross languages... Though numerals à la Oakeshott solve this problem nicely, but then they won't be used by writers.

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Eric Myers




Location: Sacramento, CA
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 214

PostPosted: Fri 25 Apr, 2008 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And speaking of broadly used terminology, I found this on Google Books today:

The Militiaman's Manual, and Sword-Play without a Master. Rapier and Broadsword Exercises originally publish in 1858.

By "rapier" he is referring to the small sword.

Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
ViaHup.com - Wiki di Scherma Italiana
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Ken Speed





Joined: 09 Oct 2006

Posts: 656

PostPosted: Fri 25 Apr, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All,

For what its worth I'm against it! Part of the fun of this whole thing is learning the absolutely whacked out vocabulary!

I'll forgo saying exactly how old I am but I will say I've managed to live what I felt has been a full and interesting life without even once using the term "spadroon". Just think, a couple of weeks ago I could have been walking down the street, minding my own business when, suddenly from out of no where an enraged antique sword collector could have stabbed me with something sharp and before I went to that great bar in the sky I would have only been able to say. "Look, a sword! Now I'd be able to say, "Look, A spadroon! Clearly my life is infinitely richer! Just imagine if it was a Type XII with triple fullers! Oh Joy, Oh Bliss!

There are, of course, the other weapons. They're fun. Someone recently mentioned a melon mace!! I almost fainted, I really did. Men fought each other by hitting each other in the melons with maces? That's just MEAN!

I haven't even dared to try to learn the terminology of armor! Arcana thy name is armor! I'll swear someone put up a picture of something that looked like a fitting for a sewer system and asked if it was a Heaven only know what from Heaven only knows when and the totally amazing part of the whole thing is other people replied! Vambraces, greaves, aventails, hour glass gauntlets? It isn't another vocabulary, its another planet!

Last but not least are the arguments. Who could not love the arguments? They are truly priceless.

"Look, I have a genuine Inuit atlatl!"

"No, that isn't an Inuit atlatl, that is obviously a Siberian atlatl!" "

"It is too Inuit, look at the carving!"

"No, its clearly Siberian, its made of a bear's leg bone and everyone knows only the Siberians made their atlatls from bear's leg bones."

"No, its Inuit, maybe someone didn't tell this Inuit that he couldn't use a bear's leg bone."

" Well, to tell the truth I don't think its an atlatl at all. I think its a gaff."

A gaff? What in the name of all the Saints makes you think its a gaff?"

"The Siberians and Inuit couldn't use atlatls according to Dr. Phineas Nosedrip, it was too cold.

" Too COLD! Dr Nosedrip!..."

And on it goes.

Please, no, don't spoil my fun. No standardized terminology. Let anarchy and chaos reign supreme!


Sincerely,



Ken
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Jean Le-Palud




Location: France
Joined: 11 May 2005
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 152

PostPosted: Sat 26 Apr, 2008 2:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Hopkins wrote:
Eric,
Thank you. That is where I found some of them! Google Books is an amazing resource.

Jonathan


French speakers (and others) may be interested by this link:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/

This link is to the Bibliothèque Nationale de France (French National Library) where many books are available for free download
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