Zaporozhian Cossack Scimitar, 18th Century -- myArmoury.com

Owen Bush · Industry Professional

that is a beautiful blade shape .As a euro centric brit I must admit to having very little knowledge of eastern European ,Russian or Turkish arms .
There seems to be lines in the blade is it a piled(multy layered) steel construction .
anyhow congratulations on a fine piece .

Kerim Mamedov · Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject:

People, the saber on the first pic is shamshir, and "shashka" have no palm gard, its handle looks like a knifes handle, you can easely find loads of pics in net.
Point of this discusion is - is it a persian saber or other one -IMO its persian, couse of a handles form and smooth blade.
I can guess it is rather light, created for fast fencing, with no armour pearcing abilitys - 18, or rather 19 c.

Felix Grashalmstahl · Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject:

[quote="Kerim Mamedov"]People, the saber on the first pic is shamshir, and "shashka" have no palm gard, its handle looks like a knifes handle, you can easely find loads of pics in net./quote]

You are speaking about just one type of shashkas. Many shashkas had guard. But you are right, guardless shashkas are the most typical shashkas.

Here is the picture about shashka's anatomy from an article about evolution of shashkas (sorry for Cyrillic letters)

Felix Grashalmstahl · Posted: Mon 14 Apr, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject:

I don't think, that there are strict differences to distinguish shashkas from other sabres, but the way of bearing (edged side back when bearing in a scabbard) and the country of origin.

And about that piece - i also think it was made not in Zaporozhie.
I don't think, they were able to produce damascus steel that time.

But this blade could belong to a Cossack for some period.

Kerim Mamedov · Posted: Wed 16 Apr, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject:

Felix Grashalmstahl · Posted: Wed 16 Apr, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject:

Kerim Mamedov · Posted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 11:11 am Post subject:

Felix Grashalmstahl · Posted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:

Shayan G · Posted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject:

I'm not understanding what's being debated. Typology? Techniques used?

It's clearly a shamshir. That's undebatable. Perhaps the semantics are the issue? Is shashka a general term for a sword, or a very specific sword? I know that shamshir and kilij and seif all just mean sword in Persian, Turkish and Arabic respectively, but in English are type-specific to a certain style and era viewed as typical of "Oriental" blades. Is the same true for shashka?

As for technique, shamshir can be used for drawcuts as well as direct slices. A good swing will also have a little pull to it to encourage the cutting medium to "fall apart" as it were, a very slight pulling motion that utilizes the friction on the edge as well as the force of impact and blade geometry. With a curved sword, this maximizes the slicing motion as well as the impact of the swing all at once, which is quite devastating.

Best regards,
Shayan

Felix Grashalmstahl · Posted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject:

I'm just trying to say, that the word "shashka" can describe various types of sabres, and that the first quoter of the blade was not normally used by horsemen fencers.

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

Felix and Kerim and everyone,
Please make sure the discussion stays courteous and respectful. Some of the posts above are close to being discourteous and disrespectful. Thank you.

Kerim Mamedov · Posted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject:

Well, I can see 2 points for this moment

1 - sword on the first photo (the discussed one, if enyone can remember Big Grin

) is shamshir in ewery inch, the fact that someone placed photo of shamshir in net article (second discussed pic) and named it "shashka of the minor staff of turkmen division" is not convinced me, they can call it even Kalashnikov, but it is IMHO shamshir, I can stake euros against nutty. The only way to make it clean - ask members for help - that why I proposed Manuchehir's book.

2 - how to cleave with shashka, and palm gard - yes or now. Well, Wiki is Wiki, but 2 honestly writen big articles in 2 different languages convinced me. Again, its only unautorised net resurce. But my books about Caucasus weapons and armor are in other coutry, I can get them in the month probabely.
Best resurce I have is "orujie narodov Kavkaza" by Astvacaturian (Weapons of Caucasus nations)
May be Felix have one and can find something (seems whe are only 2 cirilic reading persons in this discussion)

Shahril Dzulkifli

The sword in its scabbard. Note the tip of the blade jutting from it.

Vadim Masalikin · Posted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject:

Sorry, I can't see the picture from first post. May be that is a "клыч" (cossack's name).

Do not believe everything in Wiki and others (especially in Russian language)...
For example, think about this phrase from http://www.popmech.ru/ "Идеальная шашка Оружие Популярная механика" :
"К тому же удар требует двух раздельных движений - взмах и нанесение удара, а укол - одного."
In English means: "Moreover, a blow requires two separate movements - up and (then) makeing a blow, but a prick requires only one (movement)".
If this is a "mechanics", so may be very very popular "mechanics".
I don't want to say that the esse is absolutely bad (it has a lot of good information),
but it's p o p u l a r, don't forget about it ...

Of course shashka was used widely in Russia, and of course it is NOT Russian weapon.
"Russian" shashka with guard (experimental shashka by Федоров) - this is Russian dragoon's weapon, but a cossack is not a dragoon ("cossack" is a complex object (not only a professional warrior); at the moment we don't touch ethnology aspects).
Generally spoken: "C o s s a c k shashka" has no guard ((not cossack's from the river Don nor from the Ukraine-(Zaporozhian) or Urals etc.)). It may be Georgian or Osetia or etc. "type", but again without any guard. Cossack shashka is not a weapon for fencing, it's a killer of infantry (for cavalry they had pikes).
And again, there are no serious scientific works about sabres of Old Russia, except by Кирпичников А. Н. "Древнерусское оружие" Том 1. Мечи и сабли IX-XIII вв., 1966 (Kirpichnikov A. N., " Old Russia weapon", vol. 1. Swords and sabres IX-XIII c., 1966), but there were no any cossacks at that time. They appeared later in XV c..
look here (and need to register):
http://annals.xlegio.ru/contens/sai.htm

[ plus esse by Евглевский, Потемкина (Evglevsky, Potemkina) about typology of sabres of IX-XIV c., unfortunatly there is no this esse in Internet ;
plus the work by Кочкаров У.Ю. «Вооружение воинов Северо-Западного Предкавказья VIII-XIV вв. (оружие ближнего боя)» http://www.tayc.ru/v2/index.shtml?action=details&bnum=430
but this work must be ordered ]

And if you want to see an image of "cossack shashka" in my imagination, it is near to this:
1881 model cossack officer's shasqua, Czerny's auction.jpg
1881 model cossack officer's shasqua, Czerny's auction_2.jpg
1881 model cossack officer's shasqua, Czerny's auction_3.jpg
1881 model cossack officer's shasqua, Czerny's auction_4.jpg
I'm absolutely not an expert, but I'm 1/2 cossack Happy

(my father is cossack from r. Don, and his father so, and his mother and so on and ...). Excuse me for off-top.

Thank you all, and sorry for my awful English

Shahril Dzulkifli

I'm sorry, Vadim. That photo suddenly disappeared due to file error.