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Shamsi Modarai




Location: On wuda bearwe, under actreo in žam eoršscręfe.
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2007 7:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Out of curiosity, what did make self-respecting men trade in their trousers for, what amount to, boxer shorts with stockings attached to them? Did their wives finally get their way, or what?


It's all about showing the legs, man, the legs! You've got a very well-toned, well-muscled leg, so you'd want to show it off for everyone to see, don't you?


This is *so* true. I am personally more of a "strong back and well-muscled arm" girl, but the Wife of Bath definitely liked her man to have a nice leg, and a nice stocking to show it off. She liked it so much that when she is supposed to be in mourning at her fourth husband's funeral she is distracted by the clerk who later became her fifth husband:

To chirche was myn housbonde born a-morwe
With neighebores, that for hym maden sorwe;
And Jankyn, oure clerk, was oon of tho.
As help me God, whan that I saugh hym go
After the beere, me thoughte he hadde a paire
Of legges and of feet so clene and faire
That al myn herte I yaf unto his hoold.

~ Chaucer, The Wife of Bath's Prologue, ll. 593-99

So there you go. She thought he had "a pair of legs so neat and fair" that all her heart she gave into his keeping. Wink

Personally, I still prefer the winningas. Razz

Wa biš žam že sceal of langože leofes abidan.

~ The Wife's Lament
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Nathan Keysor




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2007 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Shamsi on the Historica Enterprises clothing but for shoes I recommend Lady Loren http://www.ladyorensmedievalshoes.com/

She has shoes and boots and customs crafts them from a tracing of your foot. Also her prices are very reasonable.


Nathan

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,457

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One other possible clothing source is my sister:

http://www.merchantadventurers.com/

CHEAP but well-made and reasonably authentic. Some of her stuff is more accurately made than others, but she does know the difference and will happily tell you so. She doesn't stock good turnshoes, but once in a while she'll have a pair of cheap moccasins of some sort.

You might also find my humble Midgard website helpful, though the Viking section is still a loss:

http://www.larp.com/midgard/

And yes, for any Crusader, hosen and braies are IT! Though with a simple pair of trousers and some winingas you'll be better-dressed than anyone else at the average Renn Faire.

Have fun!

Matthew
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2007 4:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Robin Smith"]
Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Maybe its tied to Christianization?


I don't know. Didn't the Church actually disapprove of the wearing of tight hose?
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Shamsi Modarai




Location: On wuda bearwe, under actreo in žam eoršscręfe.
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have no idea if the hosen were considered bad, but I do know that the the shorter surcoats (such as in Chaucer's time) were definitely disapproved of since they showed so much...erm.....leg. Eek!
Wa biš žam že sceal of langože leofes abidan.

~ The Wife's Lament
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Robin Smith wrote:
Maybe its tied to Christianization?


I don't know. Didn't the Church actually disapprove of the wearing of tight hose?

Later period they did, but in the 11th C. chausses weren't tight. They are pretty much independent trousers legs, not the tight hosen of the 15th C. That's why I wear winningas, criss-cross leg wraps, or at the least garters, because other wise they sag at the knee.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, if we need a little more speculation, then it might have had something to do with humanism, which tended to promote the display of the human body (whether unclad or clad in tight clothing). Of course, it'd only be true if there was a significant rise in the popularity of tight hose that can be pegged down into one of the medieval renaissances (not an oxymoron!) of learning, such as the one under Charlemagne or the one in the 12th century.
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Jeremiah Swanger




Location: Central PA
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jul, 2007 1:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

*clears throat* Back to topic...

Actually, I think the whole pants vs. hosen thing warrants its own topic, IMHO...

I thank everyone for their advice so far. I'll give Historic Enterprises a call when I figure out how much of my car I have yet to pay off... and whether they can make something for someone 6'3" and 300 lbs (I'm not exactly a small fellow)...

I'll definitely be ordering an A&A Danish Axe, as theirs is the industry standard.

Still wondering what to do for a sidearm, though. I'm torn between Albion's Huskarl and Thegn models. I've already established that I want to go Anglo-Saxon, the only question is "do I want to swing toward the dark side of the Viking Age for a bit?"

Out of curiosity, what in the world was going on with Germany during the Viking Age? Were they all Franks? The nation of Germany doesn't seem to come into its own until the rise of the Knights Teuton at Acre...

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jul, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As a nation Germany seems to have been very fragmented in practice if not in theory for most of it's history, even when an Emperor was supposed to be in charge his actual real power might have varied from from region to region and different periods.

I could have this wrong, but a united Germany is a mid-19th century thing I think maybe originating from the Prussian region.
I may be wildly generalizing here. Wink

Early Viking period I think overlaps with the reign of Charlemagne who did create a really big unified Frankish/Germanic empire. After his death the Empire was divided between his sons and sort of fragmented.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Hugh Fuller




Location: Virginia
Joined: 01 Oct 2003

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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jul, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I posted the following over in SwordForums in answer to the same question that you posed there:
Quote:
You may wish to contact these folks as their work is quite good and they make a linen tunic at a reasonable price. I don't know if they will make you a pair of linen pants but I would ask as wool is awfully warm for the RennFaire season.
http://www.historicenterprises.com/c...uct_list&c=101

I have not personally seen any of these shoes, but I have read very good things about them from knowledgeable people.
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?Page...ROD&ProdID=290

I have a pair of Armlann's Single Viking Boots with a simple hard sole that have served me well. I do recommend that you put some form of arch support in them, however.
http://www.armlann.com/boots.htm

Hugh
Still trying to walk in the Light
Please see 1 John 1:5
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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Mon 16 Jul, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:

Yeah, that's the shoe I use, but currently in black (you can see them on my avatar). Balck isn't very historical (well Iron Oxide is, but...) so I am eagerly awaiting the release in brown....

So black isn't a historical colour choice for the time period at all then (be it on clothing, boots, belts, scabbards etc)?
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jul, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Taylor Ellis wrote:
Robin Smith wrote:

Yeah, that's the shoe I use, but currently in black (you can see them on my avatar). Balck isn't very historical (well Iron Oxide is, but...) so I am eagerly awaiting the release in brown....

So black isn't a historical colour choice for the time period at all then (be it on clothing, boots, belts, scabbards etc)?

Not really. In period they didn't have easy access to colorfast black dyes for clothes, so any clothes dyed black faded to a grey VERY quickly (we are talking first time its in the sun quickly). By the late middle ages, the very wealthy could spend a small fortune to have somewhat more colorfast black dye imported, but they were used as a show of wealth, and not very common.
For dying leather, they used Iron Oxide (rust). That gets a color similar to black, somewhat darker than charcoal grey with a hint of red. But it's not the uniform dark black of modern black leather dyes at all.
All in all, it should be avoided if possible. I know its not always, as with my shoes (that are not out in brown yet), or with the grip on a production sword.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jul, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Out of curiosity, what in the world was going on with Germany during the Viking Age?


Nope. There were also the troublesome Saxons, the fearsome Swabians, and the oh-so-frustrating Lombards (although these last would be Italians by a modern reckoning).
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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jul, 2007 9:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now, I may just be adding calculation to comedy, but at the 1353 tournament held in Eltham, England, Sir John Chandos and Sir James Lord Audley were both given pairs of plate covered in black velvet (also in Richard Barber's The Balck Prince p.105 (the inspiration for mine, seen here).

Additionally, I have been able to achieve colors that are, at least to the naked eye, indistiguishable from black simply by aplying several coats of olive oil. Several experiences incline me to believe that these results are repeatable with other oils as well.

-Grey



 Attachment: 53.76 KB
SLK_scab_6.JPG
The belt on this scabbard was dyed brown, but the oil on it made it look black. Please ignore the stitching, I was still learning.

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jul, 2007 10:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greyson, don't get me wrong, blacks most certainly did exist, but they were uncommon. Well, atleast far less common then it is in modern reenacting. Certainly by the 1353 (late medieval) they had the dyes, but that certainly isn't going to change my position. I think, for the sake of authenticity, blacks should be avoided if possible. Also, for Jeremiah. we are talking 11th C or earlier here...
Your scabbard looks great, and maybe its the pictures, but the natural ultradark brown of the strap looks quite distinct from the chemical black of the grip on the sword to me. As with an Iron Oxide dye, its close to black, but still not the uniform deep black of modern chemical dyes. I wouldn't call it indistinguishable to the naked eye, but they are close enough for the 10ft rule.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Matthew D





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PostPosted: Mon 16 Jul, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would be very careful using olive oil on your leather.. it does have a habit of going bad and causing damage to the leather. As for the iron oxide dye, I am at a lose as to what effect it would have on your metal.... if the reaction is finished then it shouldn't continue to react with any metal..
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Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2007 1:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oak galls can be used to dye leather black, and they were readily - and cheaply - available in England.

Robin is quite right, black cloth would fade almost immediately and good logwood blacks weren't really available in Europe until the mid-fifteenth century.

Contrary to Hollywood myth, black wasn't considered a colour worn by swarthy hero-types. Black was the colour worn by people who worked indoors, out of the sun. Black was considered rather effete; rather like men wearing pink is, today. Also dark green, dark brown, russett brown and grey required multiple dye baths to achieve the depth of colour and were definitely NOT be worn by peasants!

By far and away the most common colours were the reds/oranges (from madder) and blues (from indigo, including woad), with yellow a distant third. Green, despite the fact that it's one of the easiest colours to dye with natural dyes, doesn't appear in the art of the period very much (either not fashionable or a difficult paint pigment to produce, so not used in paintings)
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2007 9:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Out of curiosity, as every one of the websites carry Viking Age shoes, were boots not invented yet?


Hedeby has hundreds of footwear finds and some are boots; they are far harder to make than shoes and thus less profitable which is why I think they are less common among venders.

Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Out of curiosity, what did make self-respecting men trade in their trousers for, what amount to, boxer shorts with stockings attached to them? Did their wives finally get their way, or what?


Hosen are common from the 3rd century on; Romans wore them and they are common among German tribes from that time on. Fact is even in the 16th-18th century most fashions involved hosen and a pair of shorts.

As far as "Vikings" go; Thor Ewing's book Viking Clothing suggest that some cultures wore long undied or white linen pants like the Thorsberg trousers with leg wraps; basically the trousers worked like long braies (underwear/pants combo)



I will also add my voice to the buy the HE stuf over MRL; the prices are nearly the same and the quality difference is huge.

James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Jeremiah Swanger




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glennan Carnie wrote:

Contrary to Hollywood myth, black wasn't considered a colour worn by swarthy hero-types. Black was the colour worn by people who worked indoors, out of the sun. Black was considered rather effete; rather like men wearing pink is, today. Also dark green, dark brown, russett brown and grey required multiple dye baths to achieve the depth of colour and were definitely NOT be worn by peasants!


Huh. I didn't know that...

Now I regret having black as my favorite color... *doh!*

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2007 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On the other hand black is the most common color for shoes in medieval art. You can also dye fabrics black by over-dying indigo or woad and madder
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