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Taylor Ellis
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 Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | The Macejowski images show knights using swords and targeting mail and helmets. It tells you how the swords were used. The effect of actually cutting through might well be an idealized glorification... but the swords and the targeting have to be correct otherwise the people looking at would not be able to relate to it. |
As was already mentioned, modern tests have suggested the opposite to what you are extrapolating from these pictures. Do you know the context of the maciejowski bible? Based upon techniques in the manuals, modern tests and awareness of the period tendencies of exaggeration for dramatic effect, many within the arms and armor community have concluded that swords simply don't cut through armor like you want them to. Even so, it isn't that difficult for you to prove me wrong. Get some good mail and show us a video of you cutting through it.
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I am a Certified NRA Instructor. |
And I'm a former infantryman who used a rifle on operations. Let's just agree to disagree.
| Quote: | I don't want them to see your opinion only. All the negativity, exclusivity and elitist-ism here actually helps me get the message out that I want to. I could not do this without you. Thanks  |
If by negativity you mean disagreement with your position, no problem. For what it's worth, I think one look at your photo will allow most people to judge if the sca is for them or not. 
Last edited by Taylor Ellis on Thu 25 Nov, 2010 5:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hi guys,
A couple of quick notes. First, just for clarity Jean: I am not, and have never been, a member of the SCA. In fact I've never fought with rattan at any time. |
My apologies Christian, I thought Seelohar was an SCA organization. Was Christian or Hugh in the SCA or not?
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As for the Mac Bible, it's simply NOT evidence of cutting through armour. It's an illustrated Old Testament, and therefore shows biblical heroes performing super-feats. Note that the bad guys don't have the power to compromise the armour.
Single-handed swords don't cut through a mounted man's helmet, mail coif, padding and all the way into his brain. Our supermen here do this only because of divine power.
Cheers,
Christian |
I think that is probably true, with the caveat that we have to be honest that we don't know everything about the ancient past.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 9:32 am Post subject: |
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I want everybody to resist the use of hyperbole on this site.
As an example:
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Anything you can imagine being done with a sword, was done by someone at one place or another. |
I can imagine holding two swords, one in each hand, and flapping them at a high rate of speed to generate enough force to lift me off the ground. I can also imagine using those swords to soar around the skies for hours at a time. I have a hell of an imagination, but I can assure you that at no place and at no time has any person actually done this in reality.
On this site, I encourage people to not make decisive comments without specific evidence and instead specifically separate things that are possible from things that are definitive. This is an important distinction.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Lets not get personal man, keep in mind we are all real people here with more in common than not in most cases. Internet discussions tend to get carried away very easily. anybody who fights for fun with hard simulators has my respect.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Fri 12 Nov, 2010 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: |
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I edited my post accordingly.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Hi Taylor,
Indeed, the Mac Bible is not a technical source. We can infer little of tactics, targeting, or armour efficacy from it. If we tried, we'd end up with some truly silly conclusions, such as:
- Ancient Isrealites coincicentally wore 13th century medieval armour
- If you're faithful, your armour works; if you're a Philistine or Hittite, you're just wearing uncomfortable and ineffective gear
- The hand of God literally and physically appears in the sky during key moments
Not one account exists of a 13th century battle where a helmet has been compromised as illustrated in the Mac Bible. Tellingly, the only places where such accounts are present is in fiction, such as in the Arthurian cycle, biblical depictions, or moralizing imagery such as the famed "Battle Between Vice and Virtue".
People wore armour, despite the burdensome weight, limited vision, and heat for one reason: it worked.
Medieval manuscripts - technical, scriptural, heroic, or otherwise - must be understood in context, or else you end up with bizarre conclusions that cannot be backed up with physical evidence.
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Christian, the explanation I heard in a Medieval History Lecture by a PHD professor is that medieval people did not have a clear understanding of the improvement of technology over long periods of time. They assumed that the way things existed in their day is the way they always existed. That explains why ancient figures are often seen in late period armor. This is somewhat odd given that there were improvements in their own time such as the steel plow and mills... it is likely that the improvements happened too slow to be easily recognized as a historical pattern.
See my earlier post regarding the relationship between the King Aurthur Tales and how medieval nobles interpreted them.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 10:03 am Post subject: |
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I hope you will forgive me for playing 'Devils Advocate' because I substantially agree with your points, but I'm not sure I'd be quite as definitive...
| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hi Taylor,
Indeed, the Mac Bible is not a technical source. We can infer little of tactics, targeting, or armour efficacy from it. If we tried, we'd end up with some truly silly conclusions, such as:
- Ancient Isrealites coincicentally wore 13th century medieval armour
- If you're faithful, your armour works; if you're a Philistine or Hittite, you're just wearing uncomfortable and ineffective gear
- The hand of God literally and physically appears in the sky during key moments
Not one account exists of a 13th century battle where a helmet has been compromised as illustrated in the Mac Bible. |
Are you certain of that? I have read period accounts of fights in which both armor and helmets were allegedly pierced or cut with swords, spears, or axes. I'm not certain off the top of my head if any where in the 13th Century, I know Ibn Munqidh who is often quoted for his descriptions of battle in the Crusading era in which armor worked very well, also described armor also being compromised.
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Tellingly, the only places where such accounts are present is in fiction, such as in the Arthurian cycle, biblical depictions, or moralizing imagery such as the famed "Battle Between Vice and Virtue". |
There are some other more prosaic accounts, such as for example, in the Icelandic Sagas, in the Russian Primary Chronicle, in Joinevilles Chronicles of the Crusades. Such are still rare, and are by no means proof of anything in reality, but it's not quite as limited as the above. I have also seen a lot of art from the 14th and 15th Century depicting contemporary battles and showing swords cutting or piercing through armor in a distressing manner not entirely unlike the Maj. bible. It's likely these are artistic hyperbole but there could be things we don't know, like how common flaws in armor were in various periods due to early smelting and armor production. We know from Alan Williams that in fact it could be inconsistant even in the heydey of armor production in the 15th and 16th Century
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People wore armour, despite the burdensome weight, limited vision, and heat for one reason: it worked. |
Agreed. But there were also limits to how well it worked.
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Medieval manuscripts - technical, scriptural, heroic, or otherwise - must be understood in context, or else you end up with bizarre conclusions that cannot be backed up with physical evidence.
Cheers,
Christian |
Also agreed.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jean,
Please re-read my words carefully. I said as shown in the Mac Bible. Certainly, armour failed at times, and I don't contend otherwise. Nor do I say you would not target as shown in the Mac Bible, simply that it isn't good evidence for such targeting and that its very nature compels us to look elsewhere for evidence.
But in the Mac, we have images of mail-clad torsos cut in half, sword blows cutting halfway through heads armed with helmet, coif, and padding, etc. All of that is clearly dramatic license.
Cheers,
CHT
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Bill,
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Christian, the explanation I heard in a Medieval History Lecture by a PHD professor is that medieval people did not have a clear understanding of the improvement of technology over long periods of time. They assumed that the way things existed in their day is the way they always existed. That explains why ancient figures are often seen in late period armor. This is somewhat odd given that there were improvements in their own time such as the steel plow and mills... it is likely that the improvements happened too slow to be easily recognized as a historical pattern. |
What professor told you that??
Knowledgeable medieval people were well aware that, say, Romans did not dress like them. Considerable survivals of Roman iconagraphy and statuary, still in existence today, let alone 1000 years ago, would've demonstrated that readily.
Instead, we're almost surely simply seeing an artistic convention used to make events of the distant past accessible to people of the 13th century. This isn't ignorance; it's art. We see the same thing in many other periods. Look at depictions of Arthurian knights in 19th c. England. William Morris and his compatriots didn't really think Dark Ages warriors sported Victorian moustaches and hairdos - they depicted them that way for their audience.
Cheers,
CHT
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Taylor Ellis wrote: | [ | Quote: | | This comment along with your mocking tone at the picture of Bill is quite offensive and doesn't really help your point. It is this elitest attidue that makes SCA people who may otherwise learn some HEMA along with the SCA fighting not do it. |
I'm not sure how my position is elitist. My tone wasn't intended to be mocking, rather incredulous at Bill's reference to the Macejowski Bible justifying SCA techniques as historically accurate. I don't believe SCA "fighting" has anything to do with martial arts or HEMA, I'm not going to apologise for that. Just like I don't believe paintball represents modern combat very well either. You may think differently and in the end its pretty much a moot point, none of us are going to use a sword for real. So just do what makes you happy. |
Ok, lets say somebod spars using sharp swords. He then comes on and says WMA isn't real, they use blunt weapons, they may as well roll some dice. You don't think that is offensive and elitest? Then he post people in fencing masks and mocks how they look compared to a person in period clothes. Not offensive and elitest at all? Look I do both and I do agree that the SCA ruleset has some serious isses that develop habits that are inconsistent with armored combat and the testing of armor I have done...but there is a better way to say it then what you do is worthless. In fact some SCA for WMA people maybe an eye opener. Shields REALLY change things up and the mismatch of weapons you face is interesting to analyse.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Quote: |
What six pound greatsword are you referring to? Do you mean a 16th Century zweihander? What era are you talking about? |
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxii.html
XIIa.3 From the Royal Armouries. The blade alone is 43 inches. The whole sword is probably 53inches. It is within the SCA time period. I have seen other large swords too in museums. There is a huge one at the Met Museum from the Crusading period taken as a war prize by the Arabs. |
How do you figure that to be a 6 lb sword?!? While I don't know about that sword exactly, I have seen swords of that size at around 4 lbs.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Consider that there is historical evidence of people using ridicules sickles in duels. I don't know if you have ever handled a sickle but it is not a very good weapon. They still used it... maybe because they were board of swords. |
Sickles are quite handy weapons actually. Great for trapping and tripping. What do you think kamas are? The east developed an entire martial system based on those sickles...and so did the west. Not something people with swords or spears on hand would use...but works great if you don't have those weapons.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Quote: |
What six pound greatsword are you referring to? Do you mean a 16th Century zweihander? What era are you talking about? |
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxii.html
XIIa.3 From the Royal Armouries. The blade alone is 43 inches. The whole sword is probably 53inches. It is within the SCA time period. I have seen other large swords too in museums. There is a huge one at the Met Museum from the Crusading period taken as a war prize by the Arabs. |
How do you figure that to be a 6 lb sword?!? While I don't know about that sword exactly, I have seen swords of that size at around 4 lbs. |
...and I originally said 4 to 6 lbs. So it is withing what I said.
| P. Cha wrote: | | Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Consider that there is historical evidence of people using ridicules sickles in duels. I don't know if you have ever handled a sickle but it is not a very good weapon. They still used it... maybe because they were board of swords. |
Sickles are quite handy weapons actually. Great for trapping and tripping. What do you think kamas are? The east developed an entire martial system based on those sickles...and so did the west. Not something people with swords or spears on hand would use...but works great if you don't have those weapons. |
I agree that anything can be turned into a weapon.... people are creative. Hence my statement that just about anything you can imagine doing with a sword was done at one time or another, someplace. It is very hard to say that this or that is not historically accurate sword use. I still think a sickle is a terrible weapon, I would rather used a club. The sickle has no blade mass, like a Kama. The way it is designed to be used is that it has forward pointing teeth, something like a steak-knife and you actually rotate it to make a cut. I have one somewhere in my house. If I had to use the sickle as a weapon I would flip it over and use the back of the blade to make a percussive hit.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Fri 12 Nov, 2010 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | It is very hard to say that this or that is not historically accurate sword use. |
Your confusing accurate with plausible. Accurate means you have definitave proof. Plausible means it could have been. A lot of the SCA sword techniques maybe plausible, but none of it is accurate.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hi again Jean,
Do you have some specific examples of late medieval battle depictions with fully compromised armour? |
'Fully' compromised aand late medieval both narrow it down some, but I believe I do yes. Would you prefer artistic or manuscript sources?
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One reason I ask is because sometimes images are interpreted out of context. A good example is the Manesse Codex, which has been cited online at times as non-biblical evidence of helm-splitting. The problem there: Manesse is a collection of songs and poetry, not a history of battle; its illustrations depict specific poets, their lyrics, etc. For different reasons than those of the Mac Bible, we can't use it as literal evidence of such feats.
Cheers,
CHT |
I agree, personally I would not necessarily use these as evidence especially without corroborating archeology or modern tests. I'm just being pedantic about the sources, because I think we have to be careful about the data. The data mostly support the conclusions you and I have reached, but not entirely since both art and literature leave the door cracked just a little biit. I'll upload a few examples of what I mean when I get home from work tonight.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | Bill Tsafa wrote: | | It is very hard to say that this or that is not historically accurate sword use. |
Your confusing accurate with plausible. Accurate means you have definitave proof. Plausible means it could have been. A lot of the SCA sword techniques maybe plausible, but none of it is accurate. |
My position has always been that SCA techniques are "historically applicable". I never intended to say anything more then that. I have actually tried to avoid saying that. You can not have historical medieval combat unless you start factoring in horses. The horse was the main weapon of the medieval knight. In order to get "really historically accurate" you have to also factor in fortifications, siege weapons and projectile weapons.... as well as politics, all of which will have an effect on combat. The same could be said for Historical Manuals that cover dueling techniques... They are techniques that could plausibly be used in a combat situation.
Note the thread title asks "How Similar SCA fighting is to real Fighting". It does not ask "Is SCA fighting actual medieval combat?" Or are "WMA tournaments actual medieval combat?" Answer to both is no.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Steven H
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
What six pound greatsword are you referring to? Do you mean a 16th Century zweihander? What era are you talking about? |
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxii.html
XIIa.3 From the Royal Armouries. The blade alone is 43 inches. The whole sword is probably 53inches. It is within the SCA time period. I have seen other large swords too in museums. There is a huge one at the Met Museum from the Crusading period taken as a war prize by the Arabs. |
That sword Xiia.3, is 6 pounds? What do you believe to be the average weight of a European sword from 900 - 1200 AD to be ? What is the average weight of a 'Viking' sword?
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The article you quote says the blade was 35.5". And Albion's recreation of it weighs a mere 3 lbs 11oz.
And I've handled both Badger Blades and originals at the Higgins museum. The Badger blades are terribly inaccurate recreations of medieval swords. Overweight and poorly balanced.
And I've been hit with steel blunts by SCA heavy list guys on unarmoured parts of my body. No broken bones. Barely slowed me down. Assuming that bones will be broken or limbs maimed is inaccurate. It may happen. But not reliably.
And that's what bugs me when I do heavy list. The assumption that a blow that barely phased me would've crippled me had it been delivered with steel to mail and padding. I still do it. And enjoy it. But I know from direct personal experience that it's not realistic.
Cheers,
Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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