[Hank Reinhardt]

Just a quick post. Look at some Indian swords. Damn things are so small it is almost impossible for a Westerner to grip one. yet I have some originals with large comfrotable grips, and some so small as to be impoissible for me to handle. Swordplay was always dynamic, constantly changing and switching from one thing to another. (Not true for Japan, where change was alwaus viewed with suspicion. ) Above all, without even being aware of it, each will shift into a position in where they are the most comfortable. Something else to remember. Fashion dictates a lot of fighting styles. Sopunds silly I know, but look at what movies have done to influence fighting, with slashing rapiers and .45's held sideways. Hank

[Russ Ellis]

I certainly understand that there are shifts in the grip required when using a sword as Bill mentioned but let's try to confine this to the handshake grip at the moment if I can request? Is this grip used in any other time period in Western Europe? If not, why not? If it's simply a matter of style as Hank mentioned I can live with that answer (people have certainly done odder things in the name of fashion). Is the handshake grip inherently superior to a hammer grip in any way I guess is what I'm getting at. Yes, I recognize that one might have to utilize it when faced with a small gripped viking sword, but I'm wondering if that problem could have been eleminated simply by having a grip sized to fit the hand more exactly? This seems to be what happened in later time periods? The handshake grip went the way of the viking sword into obsolescence? Or is that not true? A matter of style?

[Eric Myers]

I think I predominantly use the handshake grip for single hand swords (except rapiers, and sabres that take a thumb on the backstrap, etc). The pommel may be big reason for using it with a viking sword, but I like the casting or snapping action it allows for, plus the more fluid motions it encourages never hurts my wrist or elbow, which too much hammer gripping does.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Russ;

Just a theory here: When you use a rigid hammer grip and you bend down your wrist as far as it will go you get something like a 30 degree angle between forearm and the angle of the blade. With the handshake grip the hand is a bit to the side and the blade can be in exact prolongation, strait line with the forearm, a slightly greater reach maybe and it might feel more like using the centrifugal and going with it letting the mass of the sword do the job as opposed to pushing the blade into the cut.

The wide pommel keeping the sword from slipping out of the hand.

People with a lot of cutting experience should be able to say if my assumptions make sense.

[Hank Reinhardt]

The Viking sword was characterized more by pommel and cross style than it was by blade shape. The styles went out of fashion, but the blades changed much more slowly, and not at all for the better. Europeans were keen (pun intended) on doing better and better jobs at killing people. I've been actively cuttign stuff for over 50 years, and almost never pay any attentionto the grip I use except to make sure that I know where the edge is.( For that matter, am in the process of making a video on cutting and how to, what swords can and can't cut.) If you learn how the body, shoulder, arm move, then you might work on the grip to see if it improves it. Let me tell a tale here. I use to do a lot of combat shooting with several friends. One reloaded all of his bullets on an individual basis. Weighed each powder charge, measured each cartridge, and then weighed each bullet he would cast. When he shot, he was lucky to get a group that could be covered by a platter. He did not shoot well enough for all his work to make any difference at all! In other words, work on the basics. Once you have them covered, then you can think about the finer points. If you read the Sagas you can see that they just didn't worry about details, they went out and killed people.

[Russ Ellis]

[Russ Ellis]

[Patrick Kelly]

Before you get to heavily into believing that all viking sword grips were very short I suggest you pull out your copy of Swords of the Viking Age by Ian Peirce and look at grip lengths, and if you don't have a copy I suggest you buy one as soon as possible. Viking grips run a fairly wide range in length, some are short, others aren't any shorter than what we see as standard.

They didn't design a different grip because the one they had worked well for them, and they didn't have our soft sissy hands either, so I don't think comfort was an issue like it is for us.

The 'handshake' grip is shown being used in period medieval art work like the Bayuex Tapestry so I don't think it was confined to the viking age alone. I've found that a hammer grip works well for short powerful strokes delivered in close-range. On the other hand if I'm trying to maneuver around my shield, and around my opponents shield as well, the handshake grip provides greater range. If we were able to ask an ancient warrior which grip method he used I suspect he'd look at us like we were the town fool. They trained with their weapons from childhood so something as minor as a shift in grip was probably second nature to them.

I think this is one of those points that has been discussed so much that it's started to seem like a far larger issue than it really is.

[Hank Reinhardt]

Patrick, I agree with you wholeheartedly. If you really like Viking swords, and I do, remember that they also used wheel and brazil nut pommels. All too often people have a tendency to say, well, its 1066AD and the Viking Age is over, we are all now Normans or Saxons. Too me the blade is what is important, not the grip. Hank

[Russ Ellis]

[Hank Reinhardt]

Just curious. I wrote an article for Blade Magazine to the effect that a Viking sword with a rounded point is capable of delivering very hard, cutting blows with the tip of the sword. If you cut a Viking sword in h alf down the long dimension, you end up with a straight katana, and the katana was used mainly by striking with the top six inches of the sword. In my experiments I was able to cut mail and bone with the sword, the penetration on flesh was quite easy in a thrust, and only problem was that it washarder to penetrate mail in thrust. This whole thing was that you could use your sword with greater reach, not have to concentrate on striking with the sweet spot. I wrote it for Blade as I was tired of telling people, and then having them claim that they came up with the idea. Wondering if any of you had read the article.Hank

[Russ Ellis]

[Eric McHugh]

What are the characteristics of the typical Viking sword?

I am no expert, but after combing the museum store rooms with Peter Johnsson, I am fairly certain I have no idea. These swords had a great deal of diversity to them. At the University of Uppsala store room, we looked at some 30-35 Viking swords and then at the Historical Museum in Stockholm I looked at some 40 or so in the drawers, and the hilt designs varied greatly, but one thing did seem to be common: the blades were all designed to offer a vicious cut. Some were thin and agile some were heavy and authoritative, but they all were ready to cut well. They were not finesse weapons...that was pretty clear.

So, it seems to me that the Hank's point is correct in that the blade was the most important aspect to this type of sword. The way they held it was dictated by how they were using it...or better said, the intended target. Put frankly, Monks didn't require a lot of finesse. I think the Viking were concerned with quick, authoritative slashing cuts, and so their hilt design's didn't hinder the purpose at all. They simply adjusted their grip to strike the target effectively with a brutal slash.

Hank also made a good point about fashion. One other commonality of the Viking sword was the decoration on the pommel and guard. At times, it almost seemed like a contest as to who had the most extravagant sword hilt. As sword development moved forward, the fashionable side of things became less important to the Normans (who didn't get the memo in 1066 they were no longer Vikings), but the blade remained pivotal in their fighting style: brutal slashing strikes.

Again, not an expert here, but I believe that too much can be made of the hilt and grip design of a Viking sword (especially considering the variety of hilts) when it is clear that they were using them for a set purpose. This set purpose meant that their method of gripping the sword was quite effective.

After reading this, I'm not sure if I'm making any sense...lol...

[Shane Allee]

Hank, I can't say that I have read the article in Blade in blade either, but I would with you on your points. For a few years not I have been supporting the idea that spatulate tips were used on blades to make for a better cuts with the tip. That rounded tip just allows for the blade to make a smooth cut without the chance of a pointed tip to hang up.

Russ, I hope that I'm not thinking of someone else here. Seems like you have had a hard time with the handshake grip for some time now if I am remembering right. Maybe it just comes down to person taste and it doesn't feel right for you, maybe it has more to do with what swords you have tried doing it with, or maybe something else, but I think we can help you figure it out. I became one of the early spokespersons for this grip on the forums when I got my A&A Shifford, one I think has been through your hands as well. That thing has a small grip without question, the width of my palm is wider than the grip length. So no matter what it smashed my fingers together if I tried gripping it in the traditional fashion. So my next thought with this one was the pinky over the pommel technic, that just hurt worse and there was no getting used to it. Then I finally realized that if the grip was turned the pinky could rest over the pommel cap, the upper guard layed across my palm and was seated in the contours where the guard and pommel cap joined. For me this made that hilt fit like a glove and felt more nature cutting than any of the other swords I had at that point handled. I think I have handled about all but three of the Albion viking swords now, and feel free to send down a berserkr any time guys. The clontarf and Vinland just naturally felt better with the handshake grip for me, and the Gotland could go either way but was a bit tight using a hammer grip. The Jarl had more than enough room for either grip for me, but with the swelled lobes it felt more nature with the handshake more of the time. The Hersir was the two piece pommel that I liked the most, but the hilt didn't feel no where near as good to me in my hand as the Jarl. While I love the type H, the Hersir just doesn't fit my hand well. So what I'm doing is going with a type H hilt that has the longer more narrow guards on it.

So maybe if you can let us know what you have tried with what swords, plus the styles you like we could help figure out what might work best for you. Maybe the handshake grip is to you what a two handed sword is to me, awkward...

Shane

[Jean Thibodeau]

Shane;

The Albion Gaddhjalt has a fairly long grip so both grips work and one can shift from one to the other at will if one gets used to it or finds it easy at first try.

With the Gaddhjalt I stumbled by accident onto the handshake grip and didn't even think about it twice.

At least not until this topic was started that is. I'm firmly in the " use both " camp as needed unless the grip makes using one or the other grip impossible.

With the Gaddhjalt I can also finger the guard and used it " Almost as a hand and a quarter " sword i.e. limited twohanded use, the blade sure is long enough.

[Shane Allee]

Yeah, forgot about the Gaddhjalt... Very nice feeling sword there, and plenty of room to use it how ever you want. It really is a sword that you have to have in hand to truely appreciate to the fullest extent.

Shane

[Russ Ellis]

[Shane Allee]

Actually Russ that was exactly what I hoped you would tell us. You might run into the same problem with the Berserkr that I had with the Hersir, should be able to get the idea pretty well with the Clontarf. Not much of a swell in the pommel cap though. I would just say try putting the upper guard right around the area of the bottom muscle in the palm of your hand. Something like the Gotland or the Jarl might just work better for you though since the upper guard curves back away from the hand, since all the examples you have handled have had pretty much a straight upper guard. I just checked the grip length of the Albion vikings in the review section and was shocked that the Jarl was only an 1/8" longer than the Hersir and Clontarf, from what I remembered it just seemed like it had more room. Probably just a result of the curve in the guards though.

There are plenty of designs out there, just a matter of finding what works best for you. If anything else, you might try carving up wax models (maybe even clay) to help find what size grip you need for different designs.

Shane

[Geoff Wood]

[John Cooksey]

Uncomfortable sword grips=the real reason why we are all not speaking Norwegian today. :-)

Viking Number One: "My sword grip is really uncomfortable. You know, you'd think all that damned rowing would make it easier, but the grip on Nun-slicer squeezes my pinkie-finger in a very uncomfortable way."

Viking Number Two: "You think you have problems??? Why, the grip on good ol' Monk-poker here is so short . . . . "

Viking Chorus: "How short is it???!!!!!!"

Viking Number Two: " You troll-huggers!!!! It is so short that I that I have to rotate my wrist in a very spectacular way just to get a good solid cut. I think it is giving me carpal-tunnel syndrome . . . . "

Viking Number One and Viking Number Two give each other a good long look, ponder the advantages of loot and free nuns for a few moments, then simultaneously shake their heads, and then board the longship back to Trellheim for a beer. Or maybe several . . . . . . .

And thus the bloody and violent Viking Age ends . . . . .

Plausible?

Basically, I think each user and each sword have to come to an agreement on how they are going to work together. It's a conversation that may be furthered by a hand-shake or a firm squeeze, but it has to be individual. The large pommels work best for me if they are "palmed". You know, even my grossly overweight Del Tin 2103 just screams "sword" at me when I hold it in a comfortable fashion, more so than many of my nicer, more authentic swords. And it is whines with a hungry sound when it is swung rapidly in a sweeping cut in a palmed grip.
Besides, it has ravens on the hilt . . . . .that's important. :-)


:-)