[Jean Henri Chandler]

Just to gently stir the gumbo pot a little... regarding the whole idea in SCA of cutting through a mail haburk (or breaking bones through it or causing hydrostatic shock or whatever) this is some footage of recent HEMA events with live steel, it gives you an impression of the relatively limited amount of damage a sword actually does if you take away the sharpness of the point and the edge in spite of hitting very fast and hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9Mtc4kveA
(watch for the sparks... and the disarm at 7:58)

here is a guy from my group fighting at the Swedish tournament last week
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kJyRVtG4e0

The protective gear they are wearing is basically a gambeson, a fencing mask, gloves, and a few light pads. The Poles wear leather aprons. Assuming say, riveted mail, I don't really see a sword causing any real damage through the armor, going around the armor of course is another matter. One thing about the Russian / East European videos, whatever their flaws, they do give you a somewhat enhanced idea of the effectiveness of armor, beyond the cliches we are used to from popular cinema (armor as very permeable uniforms for bad guy mooks). And they do some pretty large scale events in Eastern Europe, they aren't all as small as the ones shown.

But the point the SCA makes is well taken, it's not the same thing running an open battle with 2000 people vs. holding a HEMA tournament with 50 people (fighting one at a time) who all have 5 or 10 years of Martial Arts experience. But we can and should all learn from each other and there is nothing wrong with challenging each other on a friendly level.

Part of the reason the HEMA people can fight with steel with relative safety and relatively limited gear, is they are using swords based on Renaissance federswords, which were designed for (more or less) friendly tournaments. I think all of us, WMA /HEMA practitioners, re-enactors, SCAdians, BUGURT etc., can benefit by contintuing to examine old practices to see where they can be improved, and whenever possible to look at historical sources for "historical solutions to historical problems", because back in the day they in fact did do a lot of play fighting and sport-fighting, at all levels of society. And those folks were smart. Real smart.

J

[Bill Tsafa]

Hi Jean,

Thanks for your thoughtful and respectful comments. The steel blunts used in WMA are similar to the steel blunts used in SCA Cut and Thrust, where minimal armor is used too and injuries rarely occur. The reason for this is two fold. First, a certain amount of control is expected. Second, there is less mass at the tip of the blade in training blunts just so people do not get hurt.

You will notice that in the videos you posted the most of the attacks are from the arms only.
Patter v Chod video: .46, .56, 1.10, 1.12, 1.35, 1.37, 1.46... even 2:00 which has a large rotational cut has no hip behind the cut. The same can be said for the swordfish video. The camera is further away so I can not see the same level of detail on most of the shots but look at .40, .58, 1:00... all those cuts are from the arm and would be completely ignored in SCA armored combat (good shots in SCA cut and thrust). In unarmored combat those shots would be effective. In unarmored combat I might arm the shots too because just arming is faster and has less of a tell.

The other issue to consider which is more significant is that medieval swords designed to oppose mail had almost parallel edges with significantly more mass near the edge of the blade. The "flick of the wrist" shots seen in the videos will not come as comfortable on a 4 to 6 lb greatsword with parallel edges as they will from a longsword with a tapered edge. A medieval arming sword weighed about 2.5 to 3 lbs and had a point of balance up to 8 inches down the blade. That is a completely different from the typical cut and thrust sword usually used in training. That taper of the blade makes a world of difference in what you can easily do with the sword and how it will hit if you get you body behind the blow.

Gen 2 and Badger Blades make steel blunts too. These tend to have a blade mass more in line with what you will find on a medieval sword. You almost never see them used in WMA or SCA Cut & Thrust... because the hit like real medieval swords.

In summery, you are correct that a cut from 15th century longsword will be ineffective against mail. Tests show that even thrust are of little value. They break only one ring, if even that. That is not the weapon that we are simulating in SCA armored combat.

Note: Jean, I do realize that in your last paragraph that you seem to be getting to the same conclusion regarding the training swords used in WMA. It just did not seem to reconcile with your first paragraph.

[Taylor Ellis]

This topic reminds me a lot of the whole creationism vs evolution debate. One side looks at the facts and tests their hypotheses, whilst the other side already has their answer and tries to find specific facts that support it. The fact is, HEMA is about reconstructing historical methods of fighting as accurately as possible. It constantly evolves as we learn more as a community. The SCA is about recreating a fantasy version of the middle ages for adults to role play in. IMO they have nothing to do with each other. And no amount of retro-fitting SCA techniques made for rattan bouts under SCA rules onto historical weapons is going to change that.

[Bill Tsafa]

[Taylor Ellis]

[Bill Tsafa]

[Taylor Ellis]

Are you serious?

Ok mate, I bow to all your points. Wrap hits go straight through armour, especially if you are a biblical hero.

Ergo, this:


is an excellent approximation of this:



[/img]

[Bill Tsafa]

ok... so like I said earlier, in SCA Heavy List we are all "assumed" to be in Mail regardless of what we are wearing. Just like in a HEMA tournament it is usually "assumed" that you are unarmored regardless of the fact that you are actually wearing a modern fencing mask.

Both sides allow of some armor inaccuracies so people don't actually get hurt. I would not want to get hit in the head with rattan wearing a mail Coif any more then you probably want to get hit on the head with a steel blunt wearing nothing

[Taylor Ellis]

[P. Cha]

[Taylor Ellis]

[Bill Tsafa]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

I don't want to get crossed up with the SCA vs. WMA debate, I have some questions here with a few specific points.

[Scott Hrouda]

This thread is very reminiscent of the 31 page monster titled SCA which began 2 years after this thread.

The fact that WMA, SCA and other practitioners are very passionate about their hobbies should be self evident. The quantity, length, and (for the most part) quality of the replies are proof that we love these crazy, time consuming, physically challenging and expensive hobbies of ours. We must remember that, with the exception of a very few instructors, these are our hobbies.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

I would just like to add one thing

HEMA / WMA groups do not own the Medieval and Renaissance fencing Manuals. In fact, we found out about them largely due to the SCA. It was SCA rapier people in the 1980s and 1990s who first started passing around photocopied fragments of DiGrassi and Marozzo that is a big part of what got the HEMA ball rolling. To this day, many of the prominent HEMA researchers are actually current or former members of the SCA, Hugh Knight, Grege Mele are regulars on this forum. In Europe and in some parts of the US, there has been a conscious effort to distance HEMA from reennactment in general and the SCA in particular, just to have a fresh start. But this doesn't mean we are in opposition. It is because of the SCA that we have darkwood armoury rapiers to practice with. it's because of the SCA that we had a lot of the armor and helmets and other kit we used in the early days of the HEMA revival. It's because of SCA researchers that we know a thousand of the details that we needed to understand the context of the era, and it is because of the SCA that many of us even first thought of fighting with swords for fun (this was certainly the case in my life).

In the early days of WMA, certain groups and individuals tried to keep their discoveries secret, with the aim of making names for themselves as fencing experts. What actually happened is that some of these people contributed to giving HEMA a bad name.

But also from the get-go, other groups and individuals have also moved in the opposite direction, gradually realizing that it would only be by openly sharing ideas, and making public access to translations and scans, by getting as many people involved as possible, would this ancient art truly be revived. No one person could have figured out the basics of Lichtenauer or Fiore in one lifetime. But working together and using the internet and getting together to fight and try out ideas thousands of people all over the world have actually substantially done so now. We have learned that in order to become good fencers, we have to be humble instead of arrogant. This is a characteristic of all the best HEMA fighters today.

People in the HEMA world today have provided every scan, every translation, every image, and nearly every interpretation of every ancient manual we have found so far to the entire world online (and they are finding two or three new ones every year right now). Interpretations, drills, and hundreds of hours of sparring and tournament matches are posted for public scrutiny and criticism on youtube. HEMA groups are springing up all over the place, from Israel to Mexico to Turkey, there are an estimated 10,000 practitioners world-wide today. We are now holding open tournaments available to all-comers from any martial arts or re-enactment background in 10 countries with a bare minimum of rules. The SCA is part of this. In addition to guys who have published translation and interpretation books, people in the SCA rapier (or cut-thrust sword) world are doing leading edge research in late era fencing techniques. SCA heavy-combat fighters are starting to use HEMA techniques and reading period manuals such as the I.33 which I think is a "win-win".

Is it possible that some of the SCA rules established in 1966 could stand to be revised in light of all the things we have learned about swords, armor, and Medieval combat since then? are all the rationalizations, rules and cultural baggage that have come into the SCA since that time 100% ideal?

I would respectfully suggest maybe not, but the original spirit of a theme-party involving dressing up in armor and fighting for fun with rataan sticks is fantastic and immensely appealing to me, as is the more serious impulse to reclaim our historical heritage. The ancient fencing manuals are an important, one might even say critical part of all that, just like the oakeshott typology and this webssite. "We" don't own any of it, they are for everybody, please enjoy them and learn from them and lets keep the party going.

Ok enough ranting I'm going to go turn on Monty Python and drink some mead now!

J

EDIT: removed references to Christian being in the SCA

[Bill Tsafa]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi guys,

A couple of quick notes. First, just for clarity Jean: I am not, and have never been, a member of the SCA. In fact I've never fought with rattan at any time.

As for the Mac Bible, it's simply NOT evidence of cutting through armour. It's an illustrated Old Testament, and therefore shows biblical heroes performing super-feats. Note that the bad guys don't have the power to compromise the armour.

Single-handed swords don't cut through a mounted man's helmet, mail coif, padding and all the way into his brain. Our supermen here do this only because of divine power.

Cheers,

Christian

[Bill Tsafa]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

I think it's because sometimes that's all you had available, especially if you are a peasant.

J