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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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Eric S
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 Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Robert MacPherson wrote: | Here is a detail of the "Shiny Shapes" pic. There are three areas of damage visible here. The most dramatic one is in the upper right. Here the actual shape of the weapon point that caused the damage is discernible.
[img] https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-te1AEvTuKvA/Us1zKz-80FI/AAAAAAAACJ8/KDiMhmcTJu0/s640/SDC19609.JPG [/img]
( I am having trouble getting images to show up here lately. Can someone advise me? Pasting a valid URL between the img buttons is not working. I have also just tried attaching a JPEG from my computer, and got a error message that said the file was empty....what's with that?)Mac |
Mac, I uploaded your image to photobucket first then here, it looks like it took a hit by some kind of spike.
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, Eric!
I don't know why the pics on my Picasa page don't work here....
I imagine that the spike on a halberd or something similar is responsible for the damage. It must have been unpleasant for the guy in the gorget, but the armor did it's job. It is a testimony to just how dense that mail is that the rings are still in the same orientation they were when the weapon left its lodging. They have deformed so as to nestle into one another like the pieces of one of those puzzle rings.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://billyandcharlie.com/
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Although I don't concur that the shirt is European, Matthew Sugarbaker identifies a number of areas which were damaged and repaired on the Ashland example. One of the great strengths of mail over plate being the ability to repair rather than replace.
http://thesugarbakers.net/Ashland-Shirt.pdf
 Attachment: 154.51 KB
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Mart, the very ability to repair maille with new links is one of their main virtues in my opinion as well.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Thu 09 Jan, 2014 4:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Mac thanks for posting the image of the damaged mail, seeing authentic evidence is much better than seeing the results of modern testing on modern mail, very convincing.
| Mart Shearer wrote: | Although I don't concur that the shirt is European, Matthew Sugarbaker identifies a number of areas which were damaged and repaired on the Ashland example. One of the great strengths of mail over plate being the ability to repair rather than replace.
http://thesugarbakers.net/Ashland-Shirt.pdf |
Mart, what is it about the Ashland hauberk that makes you feel that it is not European?
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Eric,
While I'm thankful that Matthew Sugarbaker documents this armor in the pattern Erik Schmid set forth in the Mail Research Society Journal's examination of mail in the Wallace Collection, I think Sugarbaker jumps to conclude this is of European origin because of the "wedge" rivets and forces his narrative to meet his expectation.
| Matthew Sugarbaker wrote: | The place where this shirt is believed to have been found is
outside of Kuwait in a fortification ruin (early 1900s). This
seems an odd place to find a 15th century western European
shirt of maille, but one piece of evidence supports the
story. |
While mail is portable, there is little reason to believe it is not of Islamic origin. The reported find site of a Kuwaiti castle should be considered. Sugarbaker believes it to be of 15th century origin, a time when European mail is largely (if not completely) manufactured in all-riveted construction, while Eastern mail continues to be of demi-riveted construction throughout it's history. The overall shape of the armor with it's pendant split skirt is not unknown in other Islamic mail, like the 17th century, stamped-ring, double riveted, Turkish example (Met. 36.25.33), referenced above.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-t...2094?img=1
| Quote: | With the little evidence that I have, my conclusion is that
this shirt belonged to a 15 century crusader that traveled to
the middle East. |
It is a well documented fact that the Crusades had long been over by the 15th century.
| Quote: | The origin of this shirt can be determined
by the style of the rivet.
The use of the wedge shape rivet
(figure 7), instead of the round
rivet, places the creation of this
shirt in western Europe. |
But is Sugarbaker's "Figure 7. Flattened ring with wedge rivet" actually a wedge rivet or even proof of European origin?
Compare it with the Mamluk, triple-riveted example's center rivet (if indeed that's what it is), or the Met's 14.99.28 Iranian, copper-alloy rivet example shown above in the thread. Rectangular rivets are not unknown in Islamic mail, and might be confused with wedge riveting.
Attachment: 29.31 KB
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Mart,
Some excellent points. I often have similar thoughts on the certainty of mail being from a region due to identifications that are not proven solidly.
Some excellent information here everyone!
RPM
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 10 Jan, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Eric,
I think Sugarbaker jumps to conclude this is of European origin because of the "wedge" rivets and forces his narrative to meet his expectation.
The reported find site of a Kuwaiti castle should be considered. Sugarbaker believes it to be of 15th century origin, a time when European mail is largely (if not completely) manufactured in all-riveted construction, while Eastern mail continues to be of demi-riveted construction throughout it's history.
It is a well documented fact that the Crusades had long been over by the 15th century.
But is Sugarbaker's "Figure 7. Flattened ring with wedge rivet" actually a wedge rivet or even proof of European origin?
Compare it with the Mamluk, triple-riveted example's center rivet (if indeed that's what it is), or the Met's 14.99.28 Iranian, copper-alloy rivet example shown above in the thread. Rectangular rivets are not unknown in Islamic mail, and might be confused with wedge riveting. |
Mart, I can see why you are not convinced that this is European mail. The images once again are awful, there is no way to accurately make a definite conclusion. As for were it was found (supposedly) and Sugarbaker;s lack of history and armor knowledge this is irrelevant, you have to make any judgements based on what you can see which in this case is not perfectly clear.
The front of the rings, you can see what looks like a couple of rivet heads, this type could possibly be European mail.
The back of the rings, not much to see here, typical of what you might see with European riveted mail that was wedge riveted.
This is the best image I can get, unfortunately it does not say if it is from the front or back. You can see a few rectangular rivet shaped heads and holes. If this is from the back and the rivet heads shown in the front view labeled "figure 1" are actually round then this would appear to be European riveted mail. On the other hand, if this is the front then this shape of rivet would indicate an Indo-Persian mail. A few clear images is all it would take to make a determination.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 10 Jan, 2014 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | Mart,
Some excellent points. I often have similar thoughts on the certainty of mail being from a region due to identifications that are not proven solidly. RPM |
I happen to have had a chance to examine just such a hauberk a few days ago. Described as being "Ottoman", open in the front, slit up the back, short sleeved, round wire, round rivets, just under 10lbs.
Back of the links.
Front of the links.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Any examples of this type of rivet being used.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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This thread contains details of that particular example, reportedly from Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England. It has been published as your line drawing in works from AVB Norman, and a photograph appears in Laking.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=106137
The reference from Samuel Rush Meyrick shows how far scholarship has advanced since he was the "leading expert" of his day!
http://books.google.com/books?id=zA8rAAAAYAAJ...mp;f=false
Journal of the British Archaeological Association, Volume 1,1844, p.141
p.142
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 16 Jan, 2014 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | This thread contains details of that particular example, reportedly from Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England. It has been published as your line drawing in works from AVB Norman, and a photograph appears in Laking.
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Thanks Mart, this sort of puts it all together.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 16 Jan, 2014 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Eric,
Thanks for the graphic. The rings are generally stated to be "acorn-shaped", where the riveted overlap extends outward from the circumference. The British Museum has a 19th century reproduction (#1881,0802.91) from William Burgess which seems to copy this example.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collect...amp;page=1
| Quote: | This appears to be an attempt to make a putative type of medieval mail in the 19th century. Burgess evidently copied this with some larger examples, see AL116/126 (unregistered) and Royal Armouries (TR to provide reference).
Comment and description by T Richardson, Royal Armouries (June 2008) |
At least Thom gives some clue that there are other similar examples, and an acquisition(?) number.
The 19th century reproduction has 16 mm outer diameter rings, though I don't know how closely that mimics the original example. The associated flattening of the ring opposite the rivet overlap is of note, perhaps caused by the use of some cross-pein hammer?
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 16 Jan, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Eric,
Thanks for the graphic. The rings are generally stated to be "acorn-shaped", where the riveted overlap extends outward from the circumference. The British Museum has a 19th century reproduction (#1881,0802.91) from William Burgess which seems to copy this example.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collect...amp;page=1
| Quote: | This appears to be an attempt to make a putative type of medieval mail in the 19th century. Burgess evidently copied this with some larger examples, see AL116/126 (unregistered) and Royal Armouries (TR to provide reference).
Comment and description by T Richardson, Royal Armouries (June 2008) |
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The same William Burgess who gave us an example of "banded mail" 
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 16 Jan, 2014 9:37 am Post subject: |
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One and the same. They were still working things out n the 1800s. 
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 30 Jan, 2014 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Some more images from Berlin, reportedly of demi-riveted (if you can find them!) construction. Believed to date from the 13th or early 14th centuries.
http://www.berwelf.de/index.html?/realien/mae...alien.html
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 31 Jan, 2014 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | Some more images from Berlin, reportedly of demi-riveted (if you can find them!) construction. Believed to date from the 13th or early 14th centuries. |
Here is a translation of the description which states that this hauberk may have originally had an attached hood and hand coverings, it is unfortunate that the images are so small.
| Quote: | The rings have a diameter of about 6 mm, a wire thickness of 1-2 mm, a circular cross-section and should be alternately fire welded and riveted (could I but see). Multiple riveted rings appear later repairs because they occur randomly and differ mostly in their size and wire gauge from the other rings.
More information from correspondence with a museum staff: the hauberk comes from a Bernauer Museum. Before that, it was housed probably in the Bernauer Zeughaus in use for centuries. The age determination was carried out due to the welded rings - a technique that was atypical for subsequent centuries. The staff considers it possible/likely that originally is a typical, closed front hauberk of the 13th/14th century with attached hood and gloves, which was changed in the later use. |
Direct link to the images.
http://www.berwelf.de/index.html?/realien/mae...alien.html
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Fri 31 Jan, 2014 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder if the hauberk isn't displayed inside out, something that's been known to occur in the best of exhibits. It would help explain why the rivets are practically invisible. I wonder if the square hole (currently on the wearer's lower right) is deliberately placed rather than some type of damage.
There are a number of 11th and 12th century depictions of sword hilts external to the mail with the sheath beneath, and this seems to be in a good position for that function. (It would fall on the wearer's left if the hauberk is everted.)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1695...2617454669
The likelihood that such wide sleeves originally had mittens seems dubious, though it might point to an earlier date than they have suggested.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Fri 31 Jan, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Are there many other extant mail examples that display a possible 'scabbard hole,' as can be inferred from some of the period art?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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