Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Were early rapiers remounted longswords? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,032

PostPosted: Sun 03 Dec, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject: Were early rapiers remounted longswords?         Reply with quote

This may be a stupid question...but I was looking at rapiers over at Arms and Armor's website and I noticed that in most if not all of them looked as though the hilt was sitting on a naked tang...a tang far longer than the one handed rapier hilt. Since many of these rapiers had blades that could pass for type XVIII longswords, I was wondering if it is possible that early rapiers were remounted longsword blades.

Or, perhaps there is some other reason for this "naked tang" effect?
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Sun 03 Dec, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Were early rapiers remounted longswords?         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Or, perhaps there is some other reason for this "naked tang" effect?


The effect you're calling the "naked tang" is the ricasso. It is a narrower, unsharpened, portion of the blade. It allows for the finger to be wrapped around the quillon while preventing it from being near a wider, sharpened portion of the blade. I would not be surprised if it has an effect on the dynamics of the sword, as well.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,032

PostPosted: Sun 03 Dec, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Nathan,

As the majority of my "knowledge" revolves around longswords, I am not unfamiliar with the ricasso. However, looking at the Arms and Armor rapiers, which I believe are highly accurate recreations of originals, I noticed that many of these rapier ricasso taper the way a tang would (narrowing towards the pommel).

I have never seen ricasso with a backwards profile taper on anything other than rapiers. If you remove the hilt of a narrow bladed longsword and peen a three ringed rapier hilt on it, the resulting sword would look identical to a rapier, tapering ricasso and all.

Surely this cannot be coincidence?
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 620

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 12:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interessting indeed!!!! Happy I´m temted too agree with Michael on this.
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 12:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What of this: Tangs aren't finished (polished), whereas the ricasso is finished as the rest of the blade.

Regardless:

Do I think that longswords have been re-hilted with compound hilts? Yes, absolutely.

Do I think that rapiers are re-hilted longswords? No.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,121

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 1:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The National Museum in Edinburgh Scotland that has a sword that might fit this idea og modifying old swords for new styles. I will look for picturesof it for you. There were fullers running down most of the original blade and later it was modified and they run to the point now...

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 871

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:

I have never seen ricasso with a backwards profile taper on anything other than rapiers. If you remove the hilt of a narrow bladed longsword and peen a three ringed rapier hilt on it, the resulting sword would look identical to a rapier, tapering ricasso and all.

Surely this cannot be coincidence?


It could also be because of the way rapiers are mounted. The backward taper would be necessary to block the quillons, since as far as I figure they cannot press on the shoulders of the blade as is done with earlier swords. At least that's the way my Milanese Rapier is built.

I was under the impression that on longswords, ricassos are sort of an afterthought, thus following the taper of the blade instead. But I guess all the shapes have been tried anyway...

What I'm not sure of is whether the proportions would be right, but you could always shorten the tang if it's not the case. I'd also be wary of balance, as you'd end up with a grip further down the blade. I don't know if it's practical to adjust the balance using just the pommel. Maybe some reshaping of the blade would be necessary. Depending on what you call rapier...

Of course if you end up reworking the whole thing, you could just reuse the metal and start fresh as well Wink

I'd like to hear the opinion of swordsmiths about that. Do they feel that their longswords blades are similar enough to their rapier blades that this idea of re-hilting works ?

Regards

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm hard-pressed to understand why it woudn't be easier to just slightly reshape the tang if one wanted to mount a new hilt. In fact, if one is creating a hilt, I don't know why one wouldn't simply make it to fit whatever blade it was made for. Just slapping together spare parts without modification when lives are on the line just doesn't pass the smell test, in my opinion. As for the upward taper of some ricassos--a less dramatic step down to the tang might have implications for the durability of the tang. Plus, a narrower ricasso might better accomodate the finger, but leaving it wide where it meets the blade again may have implications for the strength of the forte, not to mention balance.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
What of this: Tangs aren't finished (polished), whereas the ricasso is finished as the rest of the blade.

Regardless:

Do I think that longswords have been re-hilted with compound hilts? Yes, absolutely.

Do I think that rapiers are re-hilted longswords? No.


I agree.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Angus Trim




Location: Seattle area
Joined: 26 Aug 2003

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Were early rapiers remounted longswords?         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
This may be a stupid question...but I was looking at rapiers over at Arms and Armor's website and I noticed that in most if not all of them looked as though the hilt was sitting on a naked tang...a tang far longer than the one handed rapier hilt. Since many of these rapiers had blades that could pass for type XVIII longswords, I was wondering if it is possible that early rapiers were remounted longsword blades.

Or, perhaps there is some other reason for this "naked tang" effect?


Hi Michael

I think its possible it might have happened, but I also believe its more than likely an isolated incident. I don't believe it was a general practice.

Blade geometry is just too varied to make a hard and fast statement, but most of the rapiers {1600 give or take a little} I have seen just have a blade geometry that would not lend itself to cut and thrust work just adding more tang {your supposition was the opposite}......

On the earlier stuff, I can see the possibility, but going from a two handed weapon to a single handed weapon means there's going to be dynamic issues if the blade itself isn't changed somewhat. I think in most cases it would be easier to make a blade for the purpose, not "Micky Mouse" an existing blade.......

In other words, can't count out the possibility on occassion, but I doubt it was a general practice.......

swords are fun
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,032

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all,

I'm not thinking in terms of general practice...more like initial practice that then set the style. For example, say you have a few people walking around with these fancy hilted swords, the blades of which are not as thin as they eventually become. Some young fashion conscious noble sees these lovely swords and hears about these exotic new fencing styles and wants in. He looks at his outdated longsword and says "well the blade is pretty much the same, I just need a new hilt". So then he goes to a cutler, commissions a rapier hilt, and has his sword remounted. Others follow suit, resulting in many rapiers with naked tangs. The tangs would be rough, but how hard would it be to polish them, and would that not be part of the cutler's job when remounting?

When the next "generation" sees the rapier, they see an exposed tang and that becomes ingrained as the way to make rapiers. Therefore, next generation rapiers use that style of ricasso.

Would this not have also happened when hilt rings became popular? Even though low quality swords became cheap during the late medieval period, expensive masterwork weapons would still command a high enough value that the frugal gentleman would be loathe to discard them rather than rehilt them.

There are parellels in the history of Japanese swords. Remounting blades was standard pratice. Many antique nihonto have multiple holes in the tangs despite the use of one mekugi in the fittings, tangs that have been shortened and are flat at the ends (tachi remounted as katana, large katana remounted as smaller ones to meet regulations, etc.). There are even more extreme examples...katana remounted as pole arms (naginata) and vice versa. Spears as daggers, etc.

At the very least, it's seems like a sensible hypothesis for trying to explain the reverse tapering ricasso used on many rapiers.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
R Looije




Location: Waddinxveen, Holland
Joined: 02 Dec 2006

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon 04 Dec, 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, methinks we'll never know for sure.
But even if it was a fashion-conscious noble it was probably a fairly isolated incident. It just doesn't seem practical, unless it's a show-off piece and in that case wouldn't it be easier to have a cheap one made that looks good, but lacks durability, etc?
Just my 2 cents.

"Ik worstel en kom boven" (I struggle and prevail) - Motto for Zeeland, Holland
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,032

PostPosted: Wed 06 Dec, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just found this in Tom Leoni's new article (great read, linked elsewhere in this forum):

Quote:
Throughout the 16th and 17th Centuries, it was quite common to outfit old blades with newer hilts and vice-versa. This means that swords that were born as "swords" could have become "rapiers" just by virtue of having their hilt or their blade replaced. This is another reason why it is imprecise to say that a rapier is only a weapon with a thin blade, or only one with a complex hilt, or only one that has a civilian thrusting blade as opposed to a military one more apt for the cut. These characteristics were mixed and matched at the time, as surviving examples prove; which is further evidence that Italian swordsmen of the time thought of a sword as a sword--with a longer, shorter, thinner, wider, lighter, heavier, military or civilian blade perhaps--but a sword nonetheless.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 871

PostPosted: Wed 06 Dec, 2006 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
I just found this in Tom Leoni's new article (great read, linked elsewhere in this forum):
Quote:
Throughout the 16th and 17th Centuries, it was quite common to outfit old blades with newer hilts and vice-versa. This means that swords that were born as "swords" could have become "rapiers" just by virtue of having their hilt or their blade replaced. [...]


I don't think anyone here disputes the fact that swords were rehilted or modified to become rapiers (in as much as we can define a rapier with enough precision). But your original statement was specifically that they were modified longswords. I can certainly see the possibility that an old one handed sword gets its hilt upgraded to make it more 'fashionable', however I doubt that someone actually invented the rapier out of a longsword by fitting it with a complex hilt, while there were already other longswords with complex hilts. I have the gut feeling that the balance of such a thing would not be right...

Could be an experiment to do though: fitting for example an Atrim longsword blade with a rapier hilt... Or the reverse, mounting an early rapier blade with a longsword hilt (if the tang is long enough for that). If anyone actually tries the results will surely be worth sharing Happy

Regards

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Wed 06 Dec, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
I just found this in Tom Leoni's new article (great read, linked elsewhere in this forum):

Quote:
Throughout the 16th and 17th Centuries, it was quite common to outfit old blades with newer hilts and vice-versa. This means that swords that were born as "swords" could have become "rapiers" just by virtue of having their hilt or their blade replaced. This is another reason why it is imprecise to say that a rapier is only a weapon with a thin blade, or only one with a complex hilt, or only one that has a civilian thrusting blade as opposed to a military one more apt for the cut. These characteristics were mixed and matched at the time, as surviving examples prove; which is further evidence that Italian swordsmen of the time thought of a sword as a sword--with a longer, shorter, thinner, wider, lighter, heavier, military or civilian blade perhaps--but a sword nonetheless.


I'm confident that most of us would agree with every word of that statement. But I still don't see the logic of just stuffing a longsword blade into a complex hilt without the slightest (and simplest) modification of the tang. If one cares enough about a blade or hilt to remount it, one might be expected to show some care in the mounting. Further, there are plenty of examples of complex hilted longswords from the early 16th century. These critters already existed (and thrived) before the advent of the complex hilt rapier, so there wouldn't have been any invention involved in mounting a long tapering blade of whatever width to a complex hilt.

This is a fascinating topic, although I'm much more interested in the possibility that somebody matched one of those complex longsword hilts to an estoc blade, then somebody else decided to make a less robust version of that military weapon for civilian use. I suspect that the various weapons we call rapiers may have a common mother but multiple fathers--like a litter of kittens.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,032

PostPosted: Wed 06 Dec, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The reason I specifically asked about longswords is mostly because of the length of rapier blades...though my knowledge of antique swords is limited, I have not seen many single handed swords with 36+ " blades. I should probably have said "medeival swords, such as longswords".

As for simply slapping on a rapier hilt, that is not what I had in mind. In Japan, when swords were rehilted, tangs were modified extensively. The same could be done to a longsword (or single hand sword) when remounting it, and there is no reason to think that if it was done, the sword would not have been modified to work with the new hilt.

I tried slapping a rapier hilt on an Atrim 1506 blade. Things didn't fit particularly well, but despite that and despite the length of the tang, the result was not too terrible. If I really wanted to remount this sword as a rapier, I would have to shorten the tang and modify the hilt to set correctly on it, but I think it can be done, and with favorable results.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kyro R. Lantsberger





Joined: 21 Apr 2006

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 06 Dec, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting question.

Didnt Oakeshott mention something about old blades being remounted numerous times over? I dont know if this transfers to the question at hand, where weapon types are changing drastically, but I will dig through the books to see if I can find the reference.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Were early rapiers remounted longswords?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum