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Ville Vinje
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 Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Ranelius wrote: | | Ville Vinje wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | When were stirrups introduced to Scandinavia? If Vendel warriors didn't have stirrups what would their mounted tactics look like? Throwing javelins or more of a melee fighting? |
Vendel period warriors did have stirrups.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ljebok.png |
Interesting, they must have been among the first Europeans to adopt stirrups then? Perhaps it indicates close and early contacts with the Avars and other Steppe people in the East? |
That is a very likely theory. 
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Ville Vinje wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | When were stirrups introduced to Scandinavia? If Vendel warriors didn't have stirrups what would their mounted tactics look like? Throwing javelins or more of a melee fighting? |
Vendel period warriors did have stirrups.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ljebok.png |
Thank you, I saw a picture of a Vendel cavalryman and the picture didn't show anything like stirrups so I wasn't sure. Do you know where this one was found? Was horse equipment usual in Vendel period grave finds?
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Antonio Lamadrid
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Ranelius wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | When were stirrups introduced to Scandinavia? If Vendel warriors didn't have stirrups what would their mounted tactics look like? Throwing javelins or more of a melee fighting? |
They're known from the Viking age at least, I guess they were introduced by the Avars in the 7th-8th century. I suppose that Vendel age Scandinavians preferred to fight on foot, and that horsemen saw limited use as scouts or possibly skirmishers. This was normally the case among the Norse until the adoption of continental-style knightly cavalry in the 12th century |
What about the Battle on the Ice of Lake Vänern? It was a cavalry battle. Was it a one-off, or rather there was a later trend in Viking Age Scandinavia to fight on foot?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_on_the_Ic...%C3%A4nern
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Ranelius wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | When were stirrups introduced to Scandinavia? If Vendel warriors didn't have stirrups what would their mounted tactics look like? Throwing javelins or more of a melee fighting? |
They're known from the Viking age at least, I guess they were introduced by the Avars in the 7th-8th century. I suppose that Vendel age Scandinavians preferred to fight on foot, and that horsemen saw limited use as scouts or possibly skirmishers. This was normally the case among the Norse until the adoption of continental-style knightly cavalry in the 12th century |
And being buried with lances/spears and alot of fine bridles and stuff I imagine they saw themselves as at least partly cavallery warriors.
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Mikael Ranelius
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Our knowledge of the battle is too sketchy to draw any valid conclusions. Even if we accept that the saga provides correct information (keep in mind that is was written down some 700 years after the event), there’s nothing to suggest it was a full scale cavalry battle. The saga simply states that “him and him rode that horse”, it doesn’t give us an overall description of the forces involved. The case might have been that some prominent chieftains and their personal retinues fought mounted at the battle, whereas hundreds or thousands of their men fought on foot in the usual shield-wall. The sagas often tend to focus on certain individuals and their deeds rather than giving us balanced battle-reports. Perhaps the texts refers to opposing nobles engaged in personal combat in front of their men to prove their valour, which is a common feature in many sagas and known from other Germanic peoples. It would seem more likely than a full scale cavalry battle.
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Ville Vinje wrote: |
I'm very happy you got the chance to have a look at some of our best vendel period items. The Gustavianum museum really worked our a quite nice exibition this time. Did you also have time to visit the "Old Upsala Museum"? If not you have to come back.
Here is a link to 1468 pictures of swedish vendel period items and finds. (test info are in swedish) Enjoy.
http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/resultat_bil...amp;page=1
Regards,
/Ville |
Thanks for the link with information, and, no at that time I did not had time to visit Old Uppsala museum (was working as tourist group leader and had 40 tourists with me so could not visit all sites I would have liked to) so I will most certainly be back at another time, prefferably without such a following
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Ville Vinje
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Artis Aboltins wrote: | | Ville Vinje wrote: |
I'm very happy you got the chance to have a look at some of our best vendel period items. The Gustavianum museum really worked our a quite nice exibition this time. Did you also have time to visit the "Old Upsala Museum"? If not you have to come back.
Here is a link to 1468 pictures of swedish vendel period items and finds. (test info are in swedish) Enjoy.
http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/resultat_bil...amp;page=1
Regards,
/Ville |
Thanks for the link with information, and, no at that time I did not had time to visit Old Uppsala museum (was working as tourist group leader and had 40 tourists with me so could not visit all sites I would have liked to) so I will most certainly be back at another time, prefferably without such a following |
Have I met you? You didn't happen to visit the museum at the same time as Thorkil (helm smith) did you?
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ville Vinje wrote: |
Have I met you? You didn't happen to visit the museum at the same time as Thorkil (helm smith) did you? |
Indeed, that was me. Most educational visit I must admit, interesting discussion regarding tyhe combat applicability of Vendel/Valsgarde helmets and was a great pleasure to see both the exhibit and also a chance to meet Thorkil in person as he is one of the people whose work I greatly admire (and can only hope that one days my skills will allow me to reach the same skill level).
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Ville Vinje
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| Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: |
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It's a very small world.
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Ville Vinje wrote: | | It's a very small world. |
Quite true, I have come to this conclusion on numerous occasions.
With regards to the original subject - it is very interesting that there have been certain similarities between the findings in Uppsala area and in area around Grobin in Latvia where a scandinavian colony has existed from aproximatelly 400 a.d till 800 a.d. Settlement itself has bnever been found, but two burial fields were.
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Ville Vinje
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| Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I have read about the graves. Grobin was probably one of the most importent tradingstadions for the swedes and gotlanders. If you have any information about finds (vendel or viking period) from Grobin or other sites I would be most grateful, especially since my group is concentrated to reenacting the tradeculture to the east.
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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I will see what I can do, sadly, the digs took place before the WWII and as result quite a bit of information has been lost.
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to bring up this post after so long, but I really can't get enough of the Vendel Period stuff and I think this is the best thread on it so far.
My question is, what kind of runes would be in use during the Vendel Period? I know the Anglo-Saxon Futhork would probably be in use in England, but what about Sweden? Would the Younger Futhark have been developed yet, would the Elder Futhark still be in use, or would a slight combination of the two be used? Let me know what you guys think or if there's any info out there for me to check out. Thanks.
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Myles,
This is one of my favorite threads as well, so I certainly don't mind reviving it. As far as runes (or any other writing systems) go I really like this site:
http://www.ancientscripts.com/
Give them a whirl and let me know what you think.
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Sam Gordon Campbell
Location: Australia. Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'm looking at all these helmets and stuff, and I'm thinking to myself "My god, I want every single one!" 
Also, could one not copy some Roman stuff, as I was under the impression that many Germanic tribes (Federatii?) tried to copy Roman styles or at least intergrate them... Just a thought. 
 Attachment: 40.23 KB
Try this hair style if you've got long enough hair. I think it Vendal...
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jul, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam Gordon Campbell wrote: | I'm looking at all these helmets and stuff, and I'm thinking to myself "My god, I want every single one!"
Also, could one not copy some Roman stuff, as I was under the impression that many Germanic tribes (Federatii?) tried to copy Roman styles or at least intergrate them... Just a thought. |
I think the Suebian knot was in fashion a little earlier than the Vendel period, though I don't have the hair to pull it off anyway.
Gavin, the site says that the Younger Futhark emerged around the 800s, but it doesn't get much more specific than that. My guess is that the Elder Futhark was already beginning to lose characters/develop Younger character shapes. Any ideas how this was happening? Any Vendel period inscriptions to base ideas on?
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jul, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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While I'm at it, any advise on how to make a crest from brass or steel (hell, I'd settle for copper...)? I tried to make one some time ago without success, and I'm not really happy with the quality of the eyebrows I made. So, if anybody can tell me how to make these brass fittings on a budget without casting (I realize I'm asking alot here...) I'd be heavily in his/her debt. I've got the steel for the base helm, but not much in terms of brass. Any takers? or if Thorkil would offer me a free trial helm, I'd gladly accept! 
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jul, 2009 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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You can always go for "angle-grinder forging" as we call it there - meaning you essentially grind off the exces metal from the bar of apropriate size. It should work for the eyebrows, not sure if it would for the crest.
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jul, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Artis Aboltins wrote: | | You can always go for "angle-grinder forging" as we call it there - meaning you essentially grind off the exces metal from the bar of apropriate size. It should work for the eyebrows, not sure if it would for the crest. |
Possibly, but I believe the originals are hollow with a wooden base (don't quote me on that). The problem I ran into last time was getting the correct curve out of a hollow piece. It just sort of crimps up on you. Still, They don't have to be hollow since I'm more or less going for the look rather than a historical reproduction. And I don't have an angle grinder, but I know where they sell them! At least they're not really expensive. Where could I get some brass stock thick enough for the crest?
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Myles Mulkey
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jul, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: |
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It appears to me by the attached photo that the crest is made in two pieces, one domed piece and one "ridge" piece. I think that takes alot of the trouble out of it, but correct me if I'm seeing something that's not there.
Attachment: 25.83 KB
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This is a