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Sean Manning
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 Posted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Bill, I'm not sure if you answered my questions. I'm not disputing that good SCA heavy fighters can deliver fearsome sword blows, I'm disputing that such blows would reliably cause serious injury to a man in mail.
I know many SCA armoured fighters don't wear mail because its not very effective against clubs. But still, the ones in mail (or the bare minimum of rigid armour) aren't getting bones broken every week right? While steel sword do bend less than rattan clubs, and concentrate the energy in a smaller space, mail and padding spread out impacts, and foam and rattan stick on armour where steel would glance off. How do you know that what you consider a “good hit” would reliably break bones with a steel sword? What's your evidence?
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | Bill, I'm not sure if you answered my questions. I'm not disputing that good SCA heavy fighters can deliver fearsome sword blows, I'm disputing that such blows would reliably cause serious injury to a man in mail.
I know many SCA armoured fighters don't wear mail because its not very effective against clubs. But still, the ones in mail (or the bare minimum of rigid armour) aren't getting bones broken every week right? While steel sword do bend less than rattan clubs, and concentrate the energy in a smaller space, mail and padding spread out impacts, and foam and rattan stick on armour where steel would glance off. How do you know that what you consider a “good hit” would reliably break bones with a steel sword? What's your evidence? |
I have even better proof that the SCA style isn't gonna be effective against somebody in any level of metal armor. I fight in min. armor...so I ONLY have an elbow cop, knee cop, kidney belt, cup, gorget, helmet and hand protection. I get hit in the legs, arm, ribs and yep, no broken bones. Did get a bloody lungs once...but that was the worst of it.
Edit: basically what I feel with the rattan sword is pretty much what I feel through chain and padding vs a steel sword...so until the chain mail gets cut, which we know doesn't happen easily or often, there will be no serious damage except at areas that the chain doesn'r cover...or cover well.
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 9:02 am Post subject: |
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It has been brought up that steel swords do not flex along the edge plane while rattan clubs do. This is not true.
Your edge control has to be absolutely perfrect for a sword not to flex, and even then, it has to cut through the target or it will flex anyway. Small details in your technique, like improper grip, will cause a sword to turn during impact and flex twice as much as a rattan club. Even if your edge control is perfect, if your sword does not cut into the target (impossible with mail), it will flex and distort, absorbing much of the impact. Also, if the target moves as the force is being transfered (pretty much a given) that will cause the sword to flex on impact.
I don't have a pony in this SCA race, nor do I want one (if someone tries to give me one I will kill it  ), but I know how swords behave in the strike quite well, and the idea that they hit somehow magically harder than rattan clubs because they don't flex along the edge plane is a fallacy that I felt I had to address.
Swords do, on the other hand, concentrate force in a much smaller area, but they don't have the mass of a rattan club at the point of impact. There are some swords from the age of mail that are quite massive in that respect, but then I'd like to see someone swing those with the speed that the SCA guys swing the rattan clubs. This is not a criticism of SCA fighters...those swords are quite heavy.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | Swords do, on the other hand, concentrate force in a much smaller area, but they don't have the mass of a rattan club at the point of impact. There are some swords from the age of mail that are quite massive in that respect, but then I'd like to see someone swing those with the speed that the SCA guys swing the rattan clubs. This is not a criticism of SCA fighters...those swords are quite heavy. |
Well my rattan sword is 3 lbs 2 ounches for a 35 inch blade 10 inch hilt longsword. Course most SCA fighters tell me the sword is too light. I tell them their swords are too heavy to be swords. After bring some real swords, I'm starting get people to change their mind about how heavy their swords should be...even if it isn't the optimal weight for the stuff we do in the SCA.
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Tom Kinder
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| Posted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | Swords do, on the other hand, concentrate force in a much smaller area, but they don't have the mass of a rattan club at the point of impact. There are some swords from the age of mail that are quite massive in that respect, but then I'd like to see someone swing those with the speed that the SCA guys swing the rattan clubs. This is not a criticism of SCA fighters...those swords are quite heavy. |
Well my rattan sword is 3 lbs 2 ounches for a 35 inch blade 10 inch hilt longsword. Course most SCA fighters tell me the sword is too light. I tell them their swords are too heavy to be swords. After bring some real swords, I'm starting get people to change their mind about how heavy their swords should be...even if it isn't the optimal weight for the stuff we do in the SCA. |
this highlights what I was saying about the SCA being so varied. I have seen exactly the stuff P. Cha has in other places but where I am at now most of the fighters and all of the good ones sport extremely light swords. plastic basket hilts, trigger loops, ultra low-profile thrusting tips, the works and all for usually less than 2 pounds for a 33"-ish or more bladed arming sword.
my sticks are poorly made fishbats with steel basket hilts, 30 inch blades, and weigh 4-ish pounds. I am going to change them, I just have to get that all important round tuit.
different areas have different goals and values. the area I'm in now is hot and heavy with high end- competative fighters, including the current king. anything that can give a fighter an edge is welcomed and discussed without regards to historical merit. I have no problems with this since I like the sport of it but it certainly does detract from the historic merit of what my current group does. I have been in groups in the past that highly valued the historic accuracy and as much as possible was done to meet that. so it really does depend on what group are in.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | Bill, I'm not sure if you answered my questions. I'm not disputing that good SCA heavy fighters can deliver fearsome sword blows, I'm disputing that such blows would reliably cause serious injury to a man in mail.
I know many SCA armoured fighters don't wear mail because its not very effective against clubs. But still, the ones in mail (or the bare minimum of rigid armour) aren't getting bones broken every week right? While steel sword do bend less than rattan clubs, and concentrate the energy in a smaller space, mail and padding spread out impacts, and foam and rattan stick on armour where steel would glance off. How do you know that what you consider a “good hit” would reliably break bones with a steel sword? What's your evidence? |
hmmm.... This sounds very similar to a common debate I hear in Gun Forums. How much "gun" do you need to bring to a gun fight? There are many cases out there that show that a 9mm was entirely ineffective in stopping a threat. Still they are often preferred because the small caliber means you can carry more ammo or a lighter gun. There are cases with multiple 9mm shots to the torso that should have instantly dropped the person, but it did not. People fatally shot are often able to return fire for some time before they die. Google "9mm failure to stop" and you will find cases of police officers shooting people in the torso with 9mm and those people kept shooting back (those people did not have any armor). Other cases where they take one round in the same spot and they are on the ground and out. If you take any defensive shooting class, you will be taught to keep shooting until the threat is stopped, and not to anticipate that any predetermined amount of hits will stop the threat. I think the same would apply to a real sword fight.
You ask me for evidence of the effect of a steel sword over mail and padding. This is impossible say with any certainty not only today... but it would have been just as heard predict before a fight 800 years ago. That is because people have different pain thresh-holds. People are more sensitive in some areas of their bodies vs others and that varies from person to person. When I fought with mail, I had no problem taking hard shots across the chest, but I once took a hard shot on the tricep that made me drop my sword and I was not able to hold it for the rest of the day. I had a hard time driving home. That is a case where you don't have to break bone to temperately disable someone and I have seen many of those.
Another time a friend of mine was fighting in mail with a spear at Pennsic. He got hit in the ribs by a shieldman and it hurt a lot but he kept fighting that day. The next day he came back with a shield because his ribs still hurt and he wanted to cover that side better. He fought through the rest of Pennsic.... when he got back home he went for an x-ray because it still hurt... and found out he had a broken rib. I once broke a rib too (outside the SCA), its not that bad, only hurts if you breath deep. I know another guy who had his thumb broken by a shieldman. He was wearing a plate half gauntlet when it happened. The impact still transferred through the plate. He knew it was broken... he sat out for an hour, iced it, wrapped it and then came back with a spear to fight some more. It was really broken and the thumb was splinted the next time I saw him. In another case I know a guy who broke one of the two bones in his lower leg from a sword that skipped his shield and hit him. He still finished the match.
You asked me for "evidence" that swords can break bone through armor. I give you evidence that that is sometimes not enough. The least realistic thing about SCA fighting is that we stop after one good blow, because we don't actually want to kill each other. In a medieval battlefield you keep throwing those blows until the guy is not moving. This is something that can not be replicated either by the SCA or any other sword training organization. The closest I have come to something like this is "counted blow tournaments". In one, we fought continuously for 2 minutes and people on the side tried to count the blows landed in that time. The other, we self acknowledged the blows and first one to call 5 good blows was out.
You mentioned that blows with steel glance off while they stick with rattan. I assure you that they skip and glance off plenty with rattan too. We call them light and we keep fighting.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Mon 01 Nov, 2010 6:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | Swords do, on the other hand, concentrate force in a much smaller area, but they don't have the mass of a rattan club at the point of impact. There are some swords from the age of mail that are quite massive in that respect, but then I'd like to see someone swing those with the speed that the SCA guys swing the rattan clubs. This is not a criticism of SCA fighters...those swords are quite heavy. |
Well my rattan sword is 3 lbs 2 ounches for a 35 inch blade 10 inch hilt longsword. Course most SCA fighters tell me the sword is too light. I tell them their swords are too heavy to be swords. After bring some real swords, I'm starting get people to change their mind about how heavy their swords should be...even if it isn't the optimal weight for the stuff we do in the SCA. |
It's not really weight that makes a sword "heavy"...stupid statement, I know. I't sCoG. I once held an antique Norman era sword that I swore weighed 8lbs. I had a hard time holding it up. The owner had weighed it at 2lbs 13oz, but it had a CoG of over 10 inches.
But this takes away from the point of my post. Swords do flex along the edge plane in a strike. When cuttng, even if you cut through a target (like a tatami mat), unless your edge alignment is perfect throughout the entire cut, a sword will flex. If you don't cut through a target but the sword is stopped (eg when striking someone in mail), flex is a given.
This is why a sword makes a poor choice for an instrument of blunt trauma.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Choice of weapon is a different issue. The same techniques with sword and shield will work with a single handed mace or axe. The only difference is that you will have to use more hip to get a heavier weapon moving (or wind it up more). For that matter you can use a 2.5 lb sword, 3 lb, or 3.5 lb and each of these sword will move and impact differently. Not much different then the handgun example I gave earlier. Do you prefer the smaller 9mm (.36 cal) with higher round capacity? A .45 with one shot stopping power at the cost of low capacity? Perhaps something in the middle like a .40?
I had experimented with shield and single handed axe for a while. It hits a lot harder. It has a few added benefits like hooking and the ability for the axe head to reach behind a shield at the expense of giving up some range. The main issue I had with it is that it moves significantly slower and people are able to see and block the shots better. So while it hits like a truck, its of little value if it is only hitting shield. My personal choice is to use a lighter sword and land more blows on a person's body... a lighter sword that gets more shots off can keep a person on defense. When fighting with shield and axe, I found that people are able to more easily regain initiative because the axe was moving slower.
BTW... if you every want to test your edge alignment in the SCA try shield and axe. There will be no question as to what your alignment is. The key is generating speed and letting the axe align itself as it naturally moves in the most efficient manor through the air (edge first). The wider the flat of the blade, the easier the blade aligns itself as it cuts the air. The people who hit flat are the ones who try to force edge alignment.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Jarmo Kouhia
Location: Finland Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 3
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Sam Gordon Campbell
Location: Australia. Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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All I know is that I'd like to at least have a go at that Eastern European melee (probably the closest to a 13th century style one [without the risk of losing your armour]). I'd like to do a genuine Renee style tourny (I think they had one in England recently?). I'm happy in the SCA for what it is, and I like doing my HEMA/WMA for what it is, and I'm trying to get a 'living history' group up and going. So all in all, I'd love to do everything at least once, whether Ancient Greece or New Model Army, equestrian or dismounted; and I can only hope that one day all these choices can filter their way down here and people can take them or leave 'em for what they are.
So do what you want, or better yet do more things and just follow the rules for whatever you do. Cross pollination, experiance, and choice I think are key.
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Jarmo Kouhia wrote: | What people here think about Eastern European and Russian BUGURT Fighting. BUGURT slaughtered SCA there when people from States tried export it there. They use blunted steel weapons and their armor usually is more authentic than stuff you see in western SCA. Techiques are not sopisticated as WMA people train but in my oppion its big improvement of SCA silliness. This kind fighting is getting quite popular in Eastern Europe and Russia.
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That doesn't seem very historical to me. Looks more like SCA with more armor, less rules and steel weapons with equal amount of silliness.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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I fought two two guys from Russia visiting two years ago. I don't have video so there is no point in talking much about the results of my bouts with them. Aside from fighting them under their rules, I asked a lot of questions. First thing to know is that most of those Eastern European Groups DO have rules, but the rules are not very standardized from one group to another. Different groups have different rules. Most groups do not allow for thrusts. The guys I met with also told me that they "generally" hit lighter as compared to what they saw in the SCA while visiting.
When we look at an SCA fight we know what we are looking at because the rules are pretty standard. I do not know what fighting conventions they are using in the videos you posted, so I can not judge them. There are live steel groups I have seen here in the US that look similar. There are a two live steel groups in my area. They look like they are going at it pretty brutally when seen from they sidelines. The inside rule is that they must look competitive but not actually be competitive. They use large windups to announce where they are going to hit, they only strike in certain areas. They don't choreograph but they do control how and where they hit. The videos you posted appear to all have different conventions going on and we have no way of know what they are... so it is impossible to compare. Obviously they must be exercise some control because I did see see some open face helmets and large eye openings.
Looking at the videos you posted I do see that they are starting to use some standard SCA strikes. I see attempts at high horizontal cuts to come over the shield particularly in the third one. A see some failed attempts to try to keep the shield in a a defensive position while striking. At times I noticed they where just arming the shots... but no one is perfect. I saw some other shots land flat or with the haft... I don't know if that was intentional for safety sake. I am not knocking what they are doing, I highly respect it... but I am just bringing out point that we do not know what their rules are. We don't even know how they score kills in those videos. What is a killing blow? What armor are they calibrated for? Mail? Plate? Unarmored? What criteria should we use to judge how good or bad they are when we don't know anything about what their conventions are?
I see a major flaw in the way some people think here. When it comes to fighting I make a point out of studying every fighting style can get my hands on, pick it apart and add as much of it to my inventory of techniques. I don't care where it came from. Even if I don't like a particular form I still study it so I know what to expect from it and consider how to beat it. The idea of not wanting to learn other fighting styles goes against the concept of being a warrior. The hostility some people display against SCA fighting is just not rational. It is irrelevant however because the SCA continues to be successful and typically averages over 12,000 people at Pennsic, 7,000 at Gulf Wars and 5,000 at Estrella... and that is during a recession year too. The reason for the SCA's success is because we are Inclusive rather then Exclusive. For the last two years we have even have WMA classes at Pennsic. I attended one myself that past summer. The wide range of activities attract not just fighters, but also wives, girlfriends and kids. An Inclusive rather then Exclusive attitude is what makes all the difference.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Mon 08 Nov, 2010 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jarmo Kouhia
Location: Finland Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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From my knowledge when visiting Moscow this summer and talking few friends that are in these circles.According their rules man is out when he is down on ground. You have to admit that allowing grapling and removing most silly rules that SCA has would really help SCA. SCA mostly now days is hiding behind shield and trying to get one good hit that in real life would not harm man even in mail armor. You cant dissmiss something just because you dont know about it. Reason why you see openface helmets etc is because people actually there dont water it down so much. When talking with these people they mostly are proud of broken bones and other injuries. Some clubs ban thrusting but not all. They dont announce their hits and every part in body is target. SCA staying popular in states and some other western countries. Steel matches are much more popular than SCA in central and eastern Europe. Here northern Europe Steel matches are becoming more popular.
I apologize for my bad english. Tried fix text better to understand.
Last edited by Jarmo Kouhia on Mon 08 Nov, 2010 10:50 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Jarmo Kouhia wrote: | | According they rules from my knowledge when visiting Moscow this summer and talking few friends that are in these circles. Man is out when he is down on ground. You have to admit that allowing grapling and removing most silly rules that SCA has would really help SCA. SCA mostly now days is hiding behind shield and trying to get one good hit that in real life would not harm man even in mail armor. You cant dissmiss something just because you dont know about it. |
"Man is out when he is down on ground." Ok so that is one groups fighting convention. When fighting in that group of course my goal is to use my weight and strength to get them on the ground. A killing blow with the weapon does not count for much in that group, so I probably would not bother with it.
I can give you some pretty positive proof that introducing grappling into the SCA will not help the SCA. We do grappling every year in one tournament at Pennsic.
Here is a quick video from two years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s56IVr0fgLc
We typically get about 2,000+ people on the field battles, we only get 50 to 100 people in the grappling tournament. The grappling here is not just "get the man on the ground" it is death by weapon or submission. That means in grappling you have to get him to tap out or strike a blow on the ground. I keep inviting people to come but they tell me they don't fancy the idea of me throwing them to the ground and jumping on top of them. A lot of guys in this tournament are over 250 lbs + armor weight. Most people tend to conclude that it is a little too real for them. At 4:05 in the video I pull a guy down buy the helmet and rip it off forcing a submission. This past year I dropped a guy on his head forcing a submission. Most people want nothing to do with this sort of brutal stuff.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Jarmo Kouhia wrote: | According they rules from my knowledge when visiting Moscow this summer and talking few friends that are in these circles. Man is out when he is down on ground. You have to admit that allowing grapling and removing most silly rules that SCA has would really help SCA. SCA mostly now days is hiding behind shield and trying to get one good hit that in real life would not harm man even in mail armor. You cant dissmiss something just because you dont know about it. Reason why you see openface helmets etc is because people actually there dont care about safety so much. When talking with these people they mostly are proud of broken bones and other injuries. Some clubs ban thrusting but not all. They dont announce their hits and every place is target. About SCA popularity its mostly staying popular in states and some other western countries. Steel matches are much more popular than SCA in Central and Eastern Europe. Here norhtern Europe Steel matches are becoming more popular.
I apologize for my bad english. |
I honestly REALLY dislike this. And this is something Tsafa is guilty of as well. IT'S NOT MORE REALISTICE BECAUSE YOU FEEL MORE PAIN. It's just more stupid. Allowing grappling and more targetable areas will just cause more injuries and and add not one wit of validity of SCA combat as a historical martial art...or even a martial art at all. Even doing what you suggest and playing til you hit the ground isn't very realistic now is it? So there is no ways to kill somebody on their feet? Or when they touch the ground, they suddenly become dead? Neither the live steel group going around bashing each other with steel sticks or SCA fighters doing the same with rattan ones make them a valid combat form for the historical era. And considering that the group you mentioned seems to have a pretty big mishmash of weapon, shield and armor types, I'm not even sure what era this combat form is suppose to replicate. So no, not more accurate then the SCA. It has the same amount of silliness...if not more.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone realize this thread has been going on for three and a half years without resolution or real progression? You gentlemen have more persistence than I do. 
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jarmo Kouhia
Location: Finland Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Removing target areas and fundamental parts of fighting increases it then? Why just not fight at all and just throw dices and see who wins. No injuries and all are happy. I did not mention any group here. At group battle video that was among links. Fight seems clearly being between Livonian Knights+other western knights versus Russians. Both being quite accurate historical armours althou some mistakes can be seen. As way too many Falchions etc.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jarmo Kouhia wrote: | | Removing target areas and fundamental parts of fighting increases it then? Why just not fight at all and just throw dices and see who wins. No injuries and all are happy. I did not mention any group here. At group battle video that was among links. Fight seems clearly being between Livonian Knights+other western knights versus Russians. Both being quite accurate historical armours althou some mistakes can be seen. As way too many Falchions etc. |
How about removing thrusts? I did not see a single one in the videos you posted. I suspect that is because they are banned. In most sword fighting systems thrusts are a pretty fundamental component. They are even more significant if i they are representing the 15th century. Again, I am not knocking what they are doing. Every system has to make some compromises for the sake of safety in training and competition. I like training under a variety of different systems so that I can smooth out the short-comings of any one system.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2010 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Jarmo Kouhia wrote: | | Removing target areas and fundamental parts of fighting increases it then? Why just not fight at all and just throw dices and see who wins. No injuries and all are happy. I did not mention any group here. At group battle video that was among links. Fight seems clearly being between Livonian Knights+other western knights versus Russians. Both being quite accurate historical armours althou some mistakes can be seen. As way too many Falchions etc. |
I honestly disagree on accurate armor. I see butted chain. I see 12th cen kits with 16th cent ones. I see shields ranging about the same as well. And thats when the yactually have a match set of armor and not a miss match.
As for the first part, which is quite offensive to compare SCA combat to a D&D BTW, I never said SCA was very realistic. It's a martial sport. But considering some of the techiques I have seen in those videos, the use a sword is developed WAY more in SCA then in the environment of being a brute of that group where the goal seems to be to know somebody down and less about ACTUALLY using a weapon. And the rule set you mentioned makes such actions favorable to do for that SPORT. So yeah, more pain, same level of silliness (albeit different silliness).
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | But considering some of the techiques I have seen in those videos, the use a sword is developed WAY more in SCA then in the environment of being a brute of that group where the goal seems to be to know somebody down and less about ACTUALLY using a weapon. |
I noticed that too earlier, but I did not get into the subject in my earlier post. In the first video has a lot of energy but little technique. The second and fourth video is a melee, which of course will always be more about unit cohesion then individual skill.
I found the third video most interesting. They fought long enough so that I got a good idea of their fighting style. I see a lot of attempts at SCA technique but without proper body mechanics... but the Flat Snaps and Off Sides are there. In many case the flat snaps come in almost vertical due to bad technique and are stopped without the opponent having to even move. The shots look like what most Heavy List SCA fighters look like in their first year. They are just arming the shots, there is hardly any power coming from the lower body which is why the shots are both light and slow.
They are very intent on bashing the other guy with the shield. You don't need training to shield bash. Any peasant could do that on his first day. If they kept the shield in its proper position, almost non of the shield bashs should have landed. If a shield bash fails to harm the opponent, recovery is very slow and the shield basher is vulnerable. Perhaps these are new fighters who have not yet learned proper body mechanics... we don't know.
The other thing I noticed clearly in the third video is that they are fighting standing straight up, instead of crouching somewhat. Bending the knees a little will make them a smaller target behind the shield as well as give them better balance. If they crouched somewhat their head would not be such an open target to some of the horizontal shield bashes I saw. The shots would have a much better chance of glancing off the top of the helmet rather then going straight into the side and nearly knocking their heads off.
If they want to fight that way... they might as well get rid of the swords and strap a shield to each arm and go out like boxers with wooden gloves.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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