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Thomas James Hayman
Location: England Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
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Posted: Wed 08 Dec, 2004 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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A very, very nice article you have there. i plan on constructing a pavise very soon and need some pictures for research. Thank you, i pormise to post progress and final pictures when i get round to it. Do you have any thicknesses for them?
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Jason Adams
Location: Gibsonburg OH Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 60
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Posted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 1:55 pm Post subject: building pavise |
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I am interested in the Pavais colletion posted. Being I head a 15th Century reenactment group, I am ALWAYS in research. These pavais presented in the forum are of identical styles to what we need to make for our group. Would anyone have any thoughts on construction?
It says in the excerpts that they were made of willow wood, glued and then Gessoed. Would this practice be similar to Greek Hoplon Shields or Roman Tower Sields? Criss-cross the wood untill the shape and thickness is desired and then gessoe it? I find it interesting they do not cover it with hide or other leathers before painting as the Ancients did, as that helps prevent unreparable damage.
The trench in the center of the shield running from top to bottom center: is this just for strength of construction, or did this house a "leg" with which to prop the shield up?
Any articles you may know of on their construction would be a great aid in our quest for knowledge!
Thanks,
~Jason Banditt Adams
www.Rogue-Artist.com
illustrator and concept designer
15C re-enactor:
www.GothicGermany.org
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Thomas James Hayman
Location: England Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
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Posted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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This is how Pavises are constructed as historically as i have been able to tell.
Willow is cut into planks and these planks and then glued together edge to edge at angle with animal glue (rabbit glue). These are then rounded off at the edges and shaped at the top. these are added to a mitre-box shaped piece of wood to get the basic outline. Two strips of wood are placed in the joint between the sides and the channel on the front. The whole surafce then has a piece of medium weight linen glued and gesseod to the front. the design is then painted on and gessoed again to seal it. The back varies a little. on most examples it has the same linen treatment as the fornt minus the painting. a holding bracket or stake holder is then forged and rivetted to the back. This can be done before applying the linen to achieve a smooth surface on the front.
That is how i believe they are constructed and how i will construct mine. i will substitue willow for a cheaper wood and will use wood glue for cost reasons. On more accurate models i plan on using all period materials as this is better for the Lh crowd. The use of glues varies from person to person and generally and hardwood will do but willow is springier and tougher. Any questions?
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Jason Adams
Location: Gibsonburg OH Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 60
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Posted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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yes thank you,
Do you have any images of these construction methods? Im afraid I am much better at visual interpitation.
You hve given me a good idea of what is represented.
Thank you,
~Jason Banditt Adams
www.Rogue-Artist.com
illustrator and concept designer
15C re-enactor:
www.GothicGermany.org
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Thomas James Hayman
Location: England Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
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Posted: Thu 09 Dec, 2004 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have any images of period construction. The methods for joining the boards is all speculation. This is good well thought out speculation though. i could do you a drawing if you like? I plan on documenting every step as i make mine. if all goes well they could be for sale as early as fall next year, but that is wishful thinking.
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Jason Adams
Location: Gibsonburg OH Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 60
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Posted: Fri 10 Dec, 2004 8:43 am Post subject: sketches |
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Sure! A sketch would be fantastic!
I doubt we will be selling any of ours; not enough of a customer base out here in the US. lol You've got a few million reenactors out your way, I'd bet though!
Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it,
~Jason Banditt Adams
www.Rogue-Artist.com
illustrator and concept designer
15C re-enactor:
www.GothicGermany.org
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Thomas James Hayman
Location: England Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
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Posted: Fri 10 Dec, 2004 8:47 am Post subject: |
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err, ii actually tried to do a sketch on paint last night and it turned out nothing like a pavise. i will draw one and fix my scanner, i've been meaning to do it for a while.
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Thomas James Hayman
Location: England Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
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Posted: Sun 12 Dec, 2004 9:27 am Post subject: |
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I tried to get the thing working but to no avail, sorry for this. I hope the description is detailed enough. I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has on my method.
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Jason Adams
Location: Gibsonburg OH Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 60
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Posted: Sun 12 Dec, 2004 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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no biggie. I'll give an actual axample a good looking over before I start on one so that I understand your ideas better.
Thanks for trying though,
~Jason Banditt Adams
www.Rogue-Artist.com
illustrator and concept designer
15C re-enactor:
www.GothicGermany.org
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Jeff Johnson
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Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2004 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Nice work Nate! Got any documentation on English pavaises?
Thomas James Hayman wrote: | i will substitue willow for a cheaper wood and will use wood glue for cost reasons. On more accurate models i plan on using all period materials as this is better for the Lh crowd. The use of glues varies from person to person and generally and hardwood will do but willow is springier and tougher. Any questions? |
What do you have in mind for wood? Were you over here in the States, I'd suggest Poplar, but what's available in the UK?
Are you thinking egg tempra paint?
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Thomas James Hayman
Location: England Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
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Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2004 4:32 am Post subject: |
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At the moment i am using pine for the mock up but i'm not sure about willow. i have been told it was used but i am going to ask at the RA as i'm going next week. I have talked about paint in chat and i'm still not sure. Getting the shield done is taking long enough as it is.
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Mathieu Harlaut
Location: Paris-France Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 45
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Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2004 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Nathan Robinson wrote: | An Important Austro-Burgundian Pavise, circa 1480
[
On the pavise under discussion the fire-steels are embellished with fleurons, giving them the appearance of crowns, clearly with the intention of conveying to the observer the princely ownership of the piece. Significantly, the modification of the fire-steels to the form of a crown can also be seen in the collar of the Order of the Golden Fleece worn by the Emperor Maximilian I in his portrait, painted by Bernard Strigel about 1515, in the Gemaldegalerie, Vienna (Inv. No. 832). It can further be seen in the ornament of a horse armour in the Royal Armouries at the Tower of London (Inv. No. VI. 6-12), given by the Emperor to Henry VIII of England about 1514, but perhaps originally made for his own use, as well as on a sword in the Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer, Vienna (Inv. No. A139), recorded as having been worn by him as Archduke of Austria on his triumphal entry into Luxembourg on 29th September 1480. In these circumstances, it seems more reasonable to associate this pavise with Maximilian (1459-1519) than with his son Philip the Handsome (1478-1506) or his grandson Charles V (1500-58), who appear not to have employed the modified form of fire-steel described above. Accepting that, our pavise may even have been made for the use of the troops that followed Maximilian on his campaign into the Low Countries, its Burgundian emblems serving as a visual assertion of his authority over the territory.
Copyright © 2001 Peter Finer |
Hi Nathan,
I am new to this forum. I am a member of a living-history group recreating a small Burgundian artillery company in the end of the XVth century.
I was wondering why you associate this pavise with the Emperor Maximilian and not with the Duke Charles the Bold?
There are plenty of those pavises, with St Andrew Cross and fire-steels in museums: Zurich, Bern, Grandson, Delft and all are related with the Burgundian Wars periods circa 1477 and the Burgundian "Compagnies d'Ordonnances".
The modification of the fire-steel to look like a crown would come from the desire of the Great Duke to transform is scattered territories into a kingdom.
Cheers,
Mathieu
Attachment: 38.74 KB
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Felix Wang
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Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:16 am Post subject: |
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One quick comment on construction: once the painting is done, I would not cover it with gesso. The gesso is generally opaque white, and will mask the painting. I would think that some sort of varnish would be more appropriate.
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Thomas James Hayman
Location: England Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
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Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Yes you would be right on that, something that can be homemade and documented to the 15th century. Was linseed oil used? i am going to the RA possibly next week so i plan on asking lots of questions. Theres a nice pavise in the RA with st george as a 15th century knight. He has a sallet on with a split visor, similar to on in the same museum. No pics due to copyright reasons.
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Felix Wang
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Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure linseed oil was known, as it comes from flax seed and linen was such a common material. Jan Kohlmorgen in "Der Mittelalterliche Reiterschild" indicates that damar varnish was used also. I have not yet tried it myself, but am planning on doing so.
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Thomas James Hayman
Location: England Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
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Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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what exactly is Damar varnish and can it be made at home?
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Jason Adams
Location: Gibsonburg OH Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 60
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Posted: Tue 04 Jan, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject: leather of cloth cover |
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I have found documentation that the Pavazes in Germany at least are covered on the face with leather or cloth (linen or canvass). Hope that also helps give some flavor.
in service,
~Jason Banditt Adams
www.Rogue-Artist.com
illustrator and concept designer
15C re-enactor:
www.GothicGermany.org
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Thomas James Hayman
Location: England Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30
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Posted: Tue 04 Jan, 2005 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Nearly all WERE or ARE covered in gessoed linen and painted. The ones i have text for have pigskin or parchment on the back of them.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Posted: Fri 14 Jan, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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A Bohemian Gothic Hand-Pavise Decorated with Gold and Silver Leaf, circa 1485-90
The Property of an Austrian Nobleman
DETAILED DESCRIPTION
with rectangular wooden body formed with a strongly boxed gutter, the sides and the gutter all tapering from the widest section at the top, the inner face applied with canvas and retaining a pair of leather enarms, almost certainly the original, the outer face covered in leather decorated with a painted and applied leaf design with elaborate punched and incised detail against a contrasting punched and lightly silvered ground, involving scrolling acanthus sprigs crossed beneath a minutely-detailed figural group of St.George and the Dragon, the acanthus executed in heavier silver leaf with gilt upper surfaces, incorporating seed pods of exaggerated size also picked-out in gold leaf, with St. George drawn in full Gothic armour of silver leaf, including a sallet pushed back to reveal the face, a rectangular basketwork pattern shield charged with a cross, and the borders picked-out in gold leaf throughout, the dragon with tooled scaly body decorated en-suite and slain by a sword, and the painted surfaces preserved in fine muted untouched condition throughout (some of the narrow border strips of leather outside of the decorative scheme replaced top and bottom, the subsidiary edges with minor shrinkage).
PROVENANCE
Schloss Gunterdorf, Lower Austria
This highly distinctive design is possibly unique within the recorded groups of 15th Century Bohemian pavises. The incorporation of tooled detail is particularly unusual. The present example was examined by the late Dr. Ortwin Gamber, senior curator of the Waffensammlung in the Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna. Gamber suggested that the pavise was left at Guntersdorf by troops from the army of Mathias Corvinus, King of Hungary and Titular King of Bohemia (r.1470-90), following their withdrawal from Vienna in 1490.
The closest parallel to the styling of the acanthus pattern is possibly a design for Gothic stone tracery by the noted etcher of armour Daniel Hopfer of Augsburg. Whilst the Hopfer design is of greater complexity the character of the foliage remains very similar and notably incorporates the distinctive seed pods. An example of the Hopfer design for Gothic Tracery is in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (Harris Brisbane Dick fund, 1924, 24.68.2).
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